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Minor Nation Navies


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#1 Pataponvideo

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 01:39 PM

Because of the discussion in the Discord chat and the lack of attention to the minor nation navies I feel like it is a good idea to make a thread about minor nation and their navies as some of them did some amazing things in WWII.
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#2 Wellington99

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 01:56 PM

I think I'll kick it off by mentioning Malta. While they didn't have a navy, the entire island is probably the minor nation I'm most proud of. They're one of two recipients of the George Cross that got it collectively, the other being in 1999, and they have it displayed proudly on their flag. Without Malta, it might be fair to say the Mediterranean and North Africa would have been lost
 

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#3 DrYuriMom

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 03:12 PM

Yeah, I've been totally oblivious to minor nation navies all this time... :P


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#4 Levinne

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 09:23 PM

Well, does Brazil count as a minor in the context of WWII? Because I can say that the navy did sink... Six, I believe, german submarines? And unfortunately that's all I can recall about the navy since our participation in WWII isn't exactly covered in history textbooks. The army's a bit more well known, though.



#5 Erebus22

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 11:59 PM

Can't remember where it was posted but the devs said that they didn't have plans to include minor nations at start but couldn't resist the few they already showed.

#6 Procyon

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 12:21 AM

My guess mini navies include...

 

-the South American countries

 

-the Turks

 

-Some of the Europeans that were either neutral or got eliminated out of the conflict


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#7 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 09:22 AM

Yep! We didn't plan on having them, but thought they would be nifty rewards for the Kickstarter Backers.

 

We may add others as we go along- we'd certainly like to. :)



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#8 Historynerd

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 10:00 AM

I think I'll kick it off by mentioning Malta. While they didn't have a navy, the entire island is probably the minor nation I'm most proud of. They're one of two recipients of the George Cross that got it collectively, the other being in 1999, and they have it displayed proudly on their flag. Without Malta, it might be fair to say the Mediterranean and North Africa would have been lost

 

No disrespect, I know very well the role of Malta in the Mediterranean campaign and I don't absolutely want to insult anyone... but I do wish to observe that neither in 1939 nor in 1939 was Malta a sovereign state; it was merely a Crown Colony.

 

About minor nations, how about the Scandinavian countries (a few of their designs were rather cool), and Greece?



#9 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 10:41 AM

Hnerd;

 

Yep, Sweden was dropped (sadly!) at the last minute. Many we can get to. But first! '39. ;)



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#10 Enubatan

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 04:21 PM

That's your answer for everthing Legate! "But first! '39"
:lol:

It's very much true but I see that show up everywhere hehe



#11 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 04:50 PM

Captain Hook? BUT FIRST '39.

 

...

 

;)



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#12 Procyon

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 11:54 PM

Yep! We didn't plan on having them, but thought they would be nifty rewards for the Kickstarter Backers.

 

We may add others as we go along- we'd certainly like to. :)

 

How are you guys going to add the minor nations in-game?  I mean...since they were Kickstarter exclusives, I don't think they're going to be free.


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#13 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:11 AM

Procyon;

 

They'll likely be available in some form after launch- but nothing's yet decided about that period, or in what way. Like you, I would think it would be premium, but it's not yet set in stone.



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#14 ArcticuKitsu

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 10:16 AM

It's been mentioned that there was a happy "cheerful" desire for Sweden to  being added (back during the Kickstarter days), yet I only see one vessel for Sweden. I don't see any other vessel under the naval listings of WW2 of any destroyers, frigates, corvettes, or anything. Actually, after a bit of digging (deeper into the wiki) I managed to come up with a few more. Sweden indeed had more,  just that someone editing the wiki is neglecting, or sabotaging the wiki entries. Two 'Tre Konor Class' where launched 94 days after WW2 ended, so I guess they're out.

 

Cruiser/Heavy Cruiser/Battleship Coastal:

HSwMS Gotland  - Sweden's Sea-plane cruiser.

- HSwMS Frygia - Armoured Cruiser

- HSwMS Clas Flemming - Mine Cruiser

- HSwMS Dristigthen - Coastal Defense Ship & A seaplane tender.

- HSwMS Drottning Victoria - Coastal Defense Ship.

- HSwMS Sverige - Coastal Defense Ship

- HSwMS Gustav V - Coastal Defense Ship

 

I'm now seeing more destroyer types that it props up Sweden as their own nation. Now seeing more Destroyer types listed here:

https://en.wikipedia...ng_World_War_II

 

- Goteberg Class (6)

- Romulus Class (2)

- Psilander Class (2)

- Vidar Class (4)

- Wrangel Class (2)

- & others....I now feel there's just way too many to note that I'm stopping here.

 

Seeing Sweden & Canada getting their own foothold on the map would be awesome. I'd welcome both, among Australia, New Zealand, and others. Seeing them branch off in the world map would be awesome. I learned something new thanks to Victory Belles, and glad there's more to the Swedish navy than just the Gotland cruiser. I always assumed it was just that one Sweden Coastal with the one Finland coastal. It made things more 'romantic', I guess the wording is.



#15 Imptrooper

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:38 PM

I'm Just going to happy if there is one or two belles from the minor nations that fought in WW2 (Romania/Bulgria) let alone others in general.


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#16 ArcticuKitsu

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 11:28 AM

"Fleet-in-being" - Just the simple presence of something forces you to build something in defense of it. The same concept the BCS devs are using for the death date.

 

Romania:

https://en.wikipedia...idget_submarine - (I find this both adorable, if funky and funny. Basically what Japan did.)

https://en.wikipedia...ass_minesweeper

https://en.wikipedia...ki/NMS_Delfinul

https://en.wikipedia...Amiral_Murgescu

https://en.wikipedia...i/NMS_Marsuinul - (Romanian made)

https://en.wikipedia...ki/NMS_Rechinul - (Romanian made)

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/NMS_Smeul - (An old beauty from 1915 to 1960)

https://en.wikipedia...ian_gunboat_V12 - (something to compete with Flower-Class Corvettes & Destroyers?)

https://en.wikipedia..._motor_gunboats

https://en.wikipedia...ss_torpedo_boat

 

Out of all this I'd expect & love to see the CB Class Midget Subs as mini-Belles, and even mainly the submarine types being the NMS Delfinul. Romania seems fun, if rough & a bit Soviet-occupied :)

 

Bulgaria:

 

- https://en.wikipedia...edo_boat_Drazki

 

 

 

Hmm.....This is a bit frustrating that I feel like I'm seeing what happened with Sweden forcing me to dig deeper. Stupid wikipedia. But sure, more variety being the better. That's what makes Victory Belles awesome from the other WW2 'cookie cutter' games out there.

 

------------

 

Edit:

 

I now want BCS to take a look at NMS Delfinul. She's a sneaky sub with a bit of a bad luck, yet overly lucky elsewhere that she ended up being the most successful. Take a peak at her, not making her look weird like Surcourf, because she's a neat one. I'd playfully give Delfinul this sort of 'blouse' - http://pre09.deviant...oon-d8f3c77.jpg - maybe with the brown naval uniform overtop, or something. She's a fun sub to play around with. Quite a troll heh. She survived numerous depth charges runs, and even Russian anti-sub attacks. Quite a persistent one.

 

Personality wise: http://thefashionmor...5/DSC_01661.jpg



#17 Historynerd

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 11:57 AM

Romania:

https://en.wikipedia...idget_submarine - (I find this both adorable, if funky and funny. Basically what Japan did.)

 

Out of all this I'd expect & love to see the CB Class Midget Subs as mini-Belles

 

One of these (namely the CB.2) was involved in a plan to attack the harbour of New York; it would have been carried by the submarine Leonardo da Vinci near it, then it would have been set free, to do all the mischief it could.

 

Or have I mentioned it already, somewhere...?  :unsure:



#18 DrYuriMom

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 05:54 PM

I've been pondering the minors a lot given I'm already dedicated to playing Turkey.  One of the things we know about the minors, most particularly Poland, is that they are vulnerable to being knocked out of the game early by either human wars or the Morganas.  We only get one base to start and so all our eggs are in one little basket.

 

To help offset this, the game has a built in protection mechanism.  If we lose our single base, we get kicked into the major leagues by merging with a major power.  Or at least that's how I interpret the explanation.  Poland and Holland become British, Spain becomes Italian, and Turkey becomes German.

 

Several of these choices of alt nations make sense.  Free Holland and Free Poland based themselves in England when they lost their homelands.  Dutch naval forces actually fought with the Allies.  That Spain would become Italian makes sense given which side won the Spanish Civil War.

 

But what of Turkey?  Why Germany?  Was it because the Ottomans were allied with German in WW1?  Because Yuvuz used to be Goeben?  I don't find either argument persuasive.  Ataturk was known to be more inclined toward Britain before his death in 1938 and counseled his successors to stay close to Britain in the event of war.  In any case, the practical reality is that Turkey was pragmatic.  

 

When Germany was wiping the walls with the Balkans, Turkey had every reason to carefully manage Hitler by maintaining trade with Germany - especially chromium exports.  After all, Germany could just as easily have blasted through Turkey as they could have crossed the Soviet border in June 1941.  When the Soviets initially got their butts handed to them, all the more reason for Turkey to handle Germany carefully.  

 

But Turkey didn't become a German client state when they could have.  Imagine the headaches the Brits would have had if Turkey had permitted the Germans and Italians to cross Turkish territory into the middle east.  No, Turkey worked hard to keep real neutrality.  When the allies became dominant, Turkey remained neutral while slowly siding with the allies as it became more practical.  Only at the very end when Turkey realized they needed to join the winning US/UK side to offset the Soviets did they toss in with the allies.

 

So again, why Germany as the Turkish alt?  I propose it should be Britain.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ey#World_War_II

http://www.ucc.ie/ch.../3/hakkfra.html

https://www.quora.co...in-World-War-II

https://www.reddit.c...ep_out_of_wwii/


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#19 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 06:48 PM

DYM;

 

I'll pass on the nomination- it's definitely not too late. I'm pretty sure it's for reasons of German-Turkish cooperation in WWI and after.



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#20 Shirogane

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 01:06 PM

The great small fleet :). So we call our fleet in Poland and its contribution to the defense of the coast and access to the sea in 1939. To the west is totally forgotten and not remembered. Few people know what has contributed to the victory. She was the same as other great Allied fleet.

There are still people who think that the Polish Navy was then destroyed in three days. What it is untrue and sticking to Nazi propaganda. Which is still used to demonstrate that Poland gave up easily overcome. The last Polish Navy ship ORP Batory fought on the coast to 1.10.1939! After the burst, by the German blockade and went to the internment of Sweden. Just a reminder Poland did not exist on the maps for 123 years and so there was no Polish Navy. And yet we managed to build a modern navy and merchant navy.

 

Such a curiosity. Polish fleet has not been built on confrontation with Germany and its fleet. It was built from the beginning of another war with the Soviet Russia. Throughout the interwar period it was assumed that "East of Gdynia may stay in the strength of the Soviet squadron battleship and several other ships." Command PMW(Polish Navy), however, had a plan to neutralize these forces: the one coming from the Soviet port - Leningrad - the enemy ships had come across a barrier sea minefield, then were to be followed by squadrons of torpedo aircraft CANT Z.506 Airone and destroyed by Polish submarines. The last line of defense had to be destroyers. This plan had all the chances to be effective.

 

During the September campaign in 1939. Polish coastal defense he had no chance to establish an equal fight against overwhelming German army. Therefore, just before the outbreak of war the core of the Polish fleet in the form of three destroyers were sent to Britain, where he became the nucleus of the Polish Navy at the side of the western allies. Most of the ships remaining in Poland were sunk or taken over by the Germans and Soviet Russia (Poland had two fleets at sea Baltic and River Navy who fought with the red army soviet invasion of 17.09.1939 :( .The sailors, officers and captains after getting into captivity were murdered and tortured sometimes with their families), some managed to get to the UK, and the remaining interned in Sweden. The sailors defending the peninsula of Hel surrendered as one of the the last points of defense in the country. Hel peninsula fell 02.10.1939. There was no defender of ammunition to continue fighting the Germans.

(Is a fun curiosity Germans failed to win Hel peninsula in 1939. Similarly, in 1945 the Russians have not won the Hel peninsula defended by the Germans. In modern times, the Hel Peninsula has never been conquered in direct combat.)

 

From 1939 to 1947 Navy operated within the Polish Armed Forces in the West, and its composition based on a leased from Britain units, mostly destroyers and submarines, as well as 2 cruisers. At that time Polish ship operated in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea, the North and the Arctic, taking part, among others, the hunt for the Bismarck and the landing on the shores of Normandy. Total ships of Polish Navy during World War II sailed  1 213 000 miles offshore, escorted 787 convoys, conducted 1,162 operations, sank 8 ships and a further 5 probably damaged 11 ships and 18 - probably merchant ships sunk 39 and 2 probably shot down 20 aircraft and 10 probably. Losses amounted to 24 Polish Navy ships sunk in action. Including 19 ships from 1939, 1 mistakenly sunk by Allied forces :( , 1 embedded aground in Normandy after heavy damage. As a result of the war casualties amounted to 23 officers, 8 cadets, 137 non-commissioned officers and 236 sailors killed and 13 officers and 178 non-commissioned officers and sailors wounded. The number of medals combat was 51 crosses of the Order of Virtuti Militari is Poland's highest military decoration for heroism and courage in the face of the enemy at war., in 1052 Crosses of Valour, 68 Crosses of Merit with Swords, moreover, 83 badges of the British and 15 French.

 

Despite fighting on many seas and shed blood. Polish seafarers and ships from the Navy were not given back to a free country. Since 1944, power in taking over Polish communists in Poland under the supervision and support of the Red Army of the Soviet Union. 06.07.1945 the governments of Great Britain and the United States ceased to recognize the free Polish government. In the same month the Royal Navy ordered all ships Polish Navy to go, for repairs to the shipyard. While the sailors were to be disembarked units. This was to prevent the escape of the Polish ships and to prevent the scuttling of the Polish fleet or how scuttling of the German fleet took place at the Royal Navy's base at Scapa Flow in Scotland, after the end of the First World War. Polish sailors executed the order. What surprised the British Admiralty nobody wanted to flee to Poland or sink ships. For many, after six years of war ships were the last scraps of free Poland. In autumn 1946 Polish Admiralty decided to give back the British ships Royal Navy. This was to prevent against the efforts of the Polish communist government to return the entire fleet of the country. The British also did not want to increase the power of the Communists. If the Polish Navy returned to the Polish would be, the first modern largest fleet in the Baltic Sea. Polish ships sailed under the command of the Royal Navy until 1947. Returned to the country of all vessels owned by Poland: destroyers OORP Błyskawica and Burza and submarine ORP Wilk. Many sailors from the Polish fleet has been in the UK and other countries have chosen to live.

 

Those who returned to the country by the communist government were persecuted by the secret service as an enemy. Since 1950, the heroes of coastal defense of 1939 and pre-war officers and soldiers courts condemning them to prison for espionage and counter-revolutions. There were also death sentences.

 

 

Polish ships in the year 1939:

 

Destroyers:

 

Burza - class destroyers:

 

ORP Wicher - Built in France. Movie star destroyer played in the pre-war Polish film Rhapsody Baltic Sea. He took part in the open sea battle of World War II. 03.09.1939 sunk by dive bombers of 4 (St) / 186 (T) Trägerstaffel. In the publication there is information about the plans to renovate it, and the incarnation of the Kriegsmarine under the name "Seerose". These plans, however, were abandoned, probably due to a fire wreckage. Probably shot down one aircraft.

 

ORP Burza - Built in France. Evacuated to UK. Veteran Atlantic convoys. He sank the German submarine U-606. Survived World War II.

 

Grom- class destroyers

 

ORP Grom - Built in England. Evacuated to UK. During the operations in Norway Rombakkenfjord fired railroad, bridges and viaducts, and even individual German soldiers moving in the field, which meant that traffic on the railway line and the positions of the German and paralyzed the morale of German troops reduced. What really helped the Allied troops fighting there. Polish warships lived to see the German soldiers among various pejorative terms (eg. "Cursed Pole" or "Menschenjäger" (German .: "hunter of men")). 04.05.1940 He sunk by the Heinkel He 111, belonging to Kampfgruppe 100 (KG 100).

 

ORP Błyskawica - Built in England. Evacuated to UK. Called by the crew lucky ship. She participated in the activities of World War II from the first to the last days of fighting in Europe, operating in the Atlantic, the North Sea and the Mediterranean. He participated among others in the Norwegian campaign and the evacuation of Dunkirk, the Battle of the Atlantic, operations Torch and Overlord, and the Battle of Ushant. Operational activity at the side of the Allies ended participation in Operation Deadlight. The crew of the destroyer twice rescued the crew of sunken ships at the mines: Japanese "Terukuni Maru" and the British "Sheaf Crest". During his stay in the home yard in Cowes, on the night of 4 to 5 May 1942 the crew of "Błyskawica", supported the fire department defenses during a German air raid on the city and took part in fighting fires and helping the victims. She saved the city. In October, he escorted liner "Queen Mary" and her crew witnessed by him ramming cruiser "Curacoa." On the night of 8 on 9.09.1944 there was a battle destroyers at Ushant, during which 10 flotilla clashed with three destroyers and torpedo boats 8. Flotilla Kriegsmarine. Both teams located the devices thanks to radar. Germany began the battle, firing about 1:30 after midnight in the direction of ships 19. squadron torpedo salvo, however, outmaneuvered by Allied units that responded effective artillery fire. As a result, the serious damage suffered three German destroyers, one of them, AH1, has been immobilized, and then sunk. Z24 and the torpedo boat T24 escaped to Brest, while the Z32 tried to sail north, encountering over run by "Błyskawica" 20 squadron. When came under artillery fire, he fired a salvo of four torpedoes and turned south. Performing dodge Allied squadron lost contact with the enemy and regained it only in the final phase of the battle, when prosecuted and severely damaged Z32 threw on the French shore and was abandoned by the crew. The victorious Allies Battle of Ushant was the last manifestation of the activity of large German units and the last major battle of the sea in the western theater of war. On the night of July 15, "Tartar", "Piorun" and "Haida" attacked in the region of Île de Groix near Lorient German coastal convoy, drowning two armed trawlers and UJ1420, UJ1421 and, possibly, at least one escorted by ship. August 4 held patrol two Polish destroyers 10. Flotilla mistakenly strafed Canadian chasers torpedo, causing the death of one sailor. Took part in "Operation Deadlight" 116 U-boats, which surrendered to the Allies, and had not been distributed among the winners as the spoils of war, was to be in accordance with the provisions between allies sunk in the waters of the Atlantic, to the north of Ireland. He sank the U-boats: U-481, U-295, U-368, U-1198, U-155, U-806, U-861, U-278 and U-363 torpedoes and guns. Survived World War II. It is now a museum ship. He shot down three aircraft.

 

 

Submarines:

 

Orzeł - class submarines

 

ORP Orzeł - Built in the Netherlands. Miracle Dutch maritime technology. The most modern submarine beginning of the second war. Interned in Estonia. Disarmed and without a map. He was kidnapped by the Polish crew, who decided to take the ship to the UK. German Navy and Soviet Russia sought submarine to her sinking. The crew do not have a map of the Baltic Sea conducted a ship across the sea and broke the German blockade in the waters of Denmark! :)  On the morning of 14.10.1939 "Eagle" arrived at the height of the Firth of Forth in Scotland. Operating out of the British Isles, 8 April 1940, during a patrol in the North Sea, sank the freighter "Rio de Janeiro", carrying German troops under Operation Weserübung - information provided by the "Orzeł" was one of the first signs of a German invasion of Norway. With unexplained to this day causes, "Orzel" was lost with all hands while on patrol in the North Sea in late May and June 1940.

 

 

ORP Sęp - Built in the Netherlands. Interned in Sweden. Survived World War II. In the 50s she "played" in the film Orzeł role of its famous twin.

 

 

Mine-laying submarines:

 

Wilk – class submarines

 

ORP Wilk - Built in France. Troll submarine. On the night of 14/15 September 1939 he managed to break through to the surface by the Øresund strait flowing over the surface (passing at the approx. 60 m with a German destroyer "Richard Beitzen" and torpedo boat T 107. Polish crew persuaded the crew of the German units. They are Swedish submarine. And they strayed off course in the waters of sweden :) . September 20 "Wilk" sailed to Rosyth in the UK. He has been training ship for sailors submarine Polish Navy. Survived World War II.

 

ORP Ryś - Built in France. Interned in Sweden. Survived World War II.

 

ORP Żbik - Built in France. Interned in Sweden. Survived World War II. January 22, 1940 on a mine wagered by ORP Zbik sank German Muehlhausen PG - 314

 

 

Minelayer:

 

Gryf – class minelayer

 

ORP Gryf - Built in France. Largest ship pre-war Polish Navy. Training ship. 03.09.1939 There was a battle between. Polish ships Wicher and Gryf, a German destroyers. Polish gunners received a hit in protective mask acts No. 2 "Leberecht Maass" (according to German sources killed four sailors, the next four wounded), which meant that Germany put up a smokescreen and gone away, chased fire from Polish guns. 03.09.1939 sunk by dive bombers of 4 (St) / 186 (T) Trägerstaffel.

 

Jaskółka – class minelayers

 

ORP Jaskółka - Built in Poland. He shot down one aircraft. 14.09.1939 sunk by aircraft Ju 87.

 

ORP Rybitwa - Built in Poland. Sunk by Polish seamen. Captured in the Jastarnia port by the Germans. Then, "Rybitwa" was incorporated into the Kriegsmarine under the name  „Rixhöft”. Survived World War II. She returned to the country.

 

ORP Mewa - Built in Poland. Sunk by Polish seamen. Captured in the Jastarnia port by the Germans. Then, "Mewa" was incorporated into the Kriegsmarine under the name „Putzig”. Survived World War II. She returned to the country.

 

ORP Czajka - Built in Poland. Sunk by Polish seamen. Captured in the Jastarnia port by the Germans. Then, "Czajka" was incorporated into the Kriegsmarine under the name „ Westerplatte”. Survived World War II. She returned to the country.

 

ORP Czapla - Built in Poland. 14.09.1939 sunk by aircraft Ju 87. The further fate of the individual is not known.

 

ORP Żuraw - Built in Poland. Sunk by Polish seamen. Captured in the Jastarnia port by the Germans. Then, "Żuraw" was incorporated into the Kriegsmarine under the name „Oxhöft”. Survived World War II. She returned to the country.

 

 

Training ship:

 

German Empier V-class torpedo boat:

 

ORP Mazur (ex. „V 105”) - Built in Germany. Training ship. The first Polish ship sunken naval ship sunk and the first Allied ship during World War II. On the first day of World War II, September 1, 1939, ORP Mazur, commanded by Lieutenant Tadeusz Rutkowski, was in a port of Oksywie. At 2 pm she was at a pier, preparing to leave port, when she was attacked by German Junkers Ju 87s from IV./LG.1. The ship suffered one close hit and a hit amidships, and sunk still firing at the German aircraft. A crew member, although the ship was sinking, kept firing until waves washed him overboard:

 

ORP Gryf

 

ORP Bałtyk (ex. „D’Entrecasteaux”) - Built in France 1896!. Protected cruiser. Training ship and hulk apartment. Captured in the Gdynia port by the Germans. For a time, "Bałtyk" was used by the Germans as a hulk apartment, after which it was scrapped. It is most common version of the scrapped ship in Gdansk in 1942.

 

Interrupted by war construction of two destroyers in the Polish shipyards Grom- class destroyers:

 

ORP Orkan and ORP Huragan - The German invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939 interrupted the construction; some materials were diverted to the improvised armoured train "Kashubian Dragon". Within the next few weeks, the Gdynia and Polish Navy shipyards were captured by the Germans. The construction of the two destroyers, barely started, was never resumed, as the materials were scrapped or re-purposed by the occupier.


Polish Navy First To Fight 1939      The great small fleet :D