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Seems to me like focussing on Enchant and one other field would still be the better idea. It doesn't really matter if your target gets hit by a Negation to lock his spellcasting, or by a Revision that makes his bones break, or by a Glamour that blinds him, or by an Incantation that melts his face off, etc. What does matter is being skilled enough in one field to set a trap that disables you opponent as opposed to being limited to setting traps which inconveniences him in six different ways. Especially considering the fact that if you're up against someone who you can't just lure into a minefield you'll be completely out of tricks.

 

And especially when you can shadow your target well enough to the point where you could just sneak up to him and brain him with a sufficiently heavy stick, or otherwise nail him from a distance with bow and arrow or an Incantation or what have you. If, again, you're skilled enough to melt his face off rather than being limited to turning him into an electric fence.

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If you have the surprise on your side you don't even need a magic education, you just need a powerful enough weapon to kill in one shot and enough skill to hit the target.

Edit: I suspect the complete year 1 combat was never intended for chars that have Fitness 5 or higher that's why we already know that the health system will change in year 2.

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I'll just point out that I never intended the damn thing to be a combat "wrath of the comet's tail" type-spell. It's a bit mischievious sure, but never was it supposed to be used to put the person into the infirmary. The primary purpose is to make it discomforting enough to the victim that it's presence is constantly felt, Waaaaaay too difficult for anybody but an expert negator to fix., yet not serious enough to warrant actually seeking out an expert negator. It's refined subtlety done more for the joy of seeing a bully or other jerk suffering mildly without actually knowing who the hell did it! :angry: (for a week on end)

 

I feel you're kind of not really seeing it. Maybe someday I'll make a super combat spell but I feel those are better served in later years. This is still a school simulation, not a combat one (even if combat may take increasing parts in it later on) :)

 

(sorry if I'm coming on pretty strong here, but look, the only possible multipillar spell in Y1 is probably "corner sight" It's not some crazy powerful combat spell. It just lets one have a wide area of vision (with powerful castings allowing hindsight.) I see multipillar magic as being very *refined* in utility. If you want to bludgeon someone just incant a lightning bolt and be done with it)

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That being the case, i imagine if they ever found out the pc Gates skills, they would give the pc the benefit of the doubt instead of go straight to the guard. That only regarding Gates, Mastery gets pretty clear from the beggining its not a good mix. Seems fine this way.

 

I like the idea of a Omnimage because of versatility, as long as you have at least one or two magical fields you are pretty good at it. Would help a lot if it happens to be the field of the college you are in. Like Astrology with Gates or Glammour with Synch. A good base on Negation for general defense ts always wecome.

None of the Gressel crew (or any of their extended families for that matter) know anything about Gates beyond "it's illegal". Still, I have to wonder for how long they'll accept the PC bending the law before their patience runs out. Hopefully it'll never come up.

 

Versatility is only useful as far as it allows you to actually accomplish things, and that is where I think the omni mage falls flat on it's face. Honesty, and my apologies for this free, but I think the best position for an omni mage would be that of a royal house maid or butler. All the magic to perform all the tasks that magic would be useful for without running into the situation where you have to fight a pirate captain and you get your face stomped in because pirate captains are a little above people that summon tropical winds as opposed to full-blown monsoons.

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heh, fair enough.

 

We'll settle this difference in opinion in Y5. heheheheeheheheeheheheheehehehehehehehe...

 

hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

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*Sigh*, at least I'm not likely to run out of patients.

 

Don't worry, not everyone's trouble, my students are perfectly normal well-adjusted types, albeit possibly with a hero complex. :D

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I am a bit with Metis on this whole omni-discussion to be honest.

 

As I've already said in an another discussion if each pillar is so big to be a feat to master only one (And indeed someone like Briardi seems like one of the best mages of the academagia for her mastery of Negation). Then you wonder how much of a pillar can someone learn when you learn all of them at the same time ! (the seven one even !)

 

I used the "Science" analogy with Magic, so discipline like Negation, Revision etc... would be replaced by Mathematics, Biology, Physics...

Who is better the one who focused math for 5 years or the one who studied every field available for 5 years.

While the second one will have an impressive knowledge on every field, it pales in comparison with the first one in his own field. Especially in the practical side that is often thaught in the last years after the theoritical knowledge is known.

 

I don't say this on the fly either. In France there is an old obsession with engineer with knowledge as broad as possible heck the most famous school is named "Polytechnique" and does exactly what the "omni-science" guy in my exemple does.

And those engineer are famous to suck on the technical side of their job to the point that many people don't really consider them engineer (especially outside france) altough they make correct manager (broad knowledge is a plus here.) and that's how they are trained nowadays.

 

That's why I wonder how much can an omni PC can achieve in comparison to a one pillar (or two) focused PC. Altough I consider that having all this knowledge of all the pillars may be an advantage in for exemple duel as like free said I think other mage would be surprised by all the different spell one could cast especially if it's possible to mix ton of pillar together. And it can be for the future interesting for pillar blending research.

And I am sure I can find other situation where the omni will shine by his versatility.

 

Tough like Metis I don't think they would get the same prestige or power that the pillar's Master have.

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I had in mind more Leene, Nhordhum and Lotus giving the player a chance to explain, or something along these lines, instead of Nordums parents. Gregory is too severe, in a lack of a better word, and from what i get on the " w.i.p." adventure, the trio is even a bit rebellious, so they would more likely to give the player a chance depending of the year and how far you got involved with them.

I think "traditionalist" is the word you're looking for. And yes, I do believe that the Gressel crew would at least give you the chance to explain yourself, but I don't know how they'd react. Especially in Y2 path b (if that will ever exist).

 

And if not, that Mental-Gates lore, while was written way before Synch so it was about Mastery with Gates, could very well be used with Sych. I see no reason why a Synch-Gates could not emulate similar effects. Depending on how you look at it, Synch got a better understanding of the mind than Mastery does.

I frankly have no idea how you'd combine Sync with Gates, but if you can combine Gates with Mastery there's at least a decent chance that you could, indeed, combine Sync and Gates.

 

For versality, i dont see too much problem with the Omni concept as to the lack of synergy.

 

As an example, i Have Astrology and Geometry from Avila, so what would be a good field of study to complement both?

Arithmetic. From " Advanced Arithmetic Study " ability to Numerology, and the Self explanatory Geometry its a good set.

 

Same with Grammar, Dialectic and Rethoric:

 

"Along with Grammar and Dialectic, Rhetoric is one of the pillars of compelling debate and rational thought in a world that needs both more than ever"

 

So, to study all pillars just for the sake of being an omni without nothing to support it dont seem very good at first glance.

 

I do think however, that freespace will have influenced the Team enough to make room for Omnis way bigger than it was originally intended, so it may ending as a legitimate path afterall.

Good point on the synergy. I intend for my eventual Y2 PC to be a Hedi kid with at least Dialectic/Grammar/Glamour/Rhetoric, you can imagine how well that compliments Sync.

 

Don't worry, not everyone's trouble, my students are perfectly normal well-adjusted types, albeit possibly with a hero complex. :D

Just so long as that hero complex won't end up with you send on what can kindly be called a suicide mission gamble and end up with mental scarring from nearly being burned alive by a...something. Not like that'll ever happen or anything, oh no.

 

As I've already said in an another discussion if each pillar is so big to be a feat to master only one (And indeed someone like Briardi seems like one of the best mages of the academagia for her mastery of Negation). Then you wonder how much of a pillar can someone learn when you learn all of them at the same time ! (the seven one even !)

Not sure where you got to the number seven, since there's eight pillars - Astrology, Enchant, Gates, Glamour, Incantation, Mastery, Negation, Revision. Not to mention the rumored hybrid and specialization skills I...remember hearing we'll see in Y2, of which Sync is one that exists in Y1 IIRC. As for the effort it takes, well, see how long it takes to max out those eight skillsets in Y1 and remember that raising skills from 10 to 20 will take...I think six times as long as raising it from 0 to 10? Oh, and that's just for the legal skills with professors you can extract favors from. Mastery and Gates may take eleven times as much time.

 

And those engineer are famous to suck on the technical side of their job to the point that many people don't really consider them engineer (especially outside france) altough they make correct manager (broad knowledge is a plus here.) and that's how they are trained nowadays.

Oh, that's something more respectable that free can do. Substitute teacher at the Academagia, like Professor Knoht. For teaching first years I don't think you need more knowledge than a third, maybe fourth year student. Maybe second year even, depending.

 

That's why I wonder how much can an omni PC can achieve in comparison to a one pillar (or two) focused PC. Altough I consider that having all this knowledge of all the pillars may be an advantage in for exemple duel as like free said I think other mage would be surprised by all the different spell one could cast especially if it's possible to mix ton of pillar together. And it can be for the future interesting for pillar blending research. And I am sure I can find other situation where the omni will shine by his versatility.

That duel situation is just asking for your opponent to lock down your spellcasting completely with a Negation too strong for mister omni-disciplinarian to counter. Or for your opponent to melt your face off and win the duel before you get a turn. Or drive you insane with a Glamour so you can't duel anymore. Or to Revise your skills so your spellcasting rolls go purely off of attributes if you don't get your lungs turned inside-out to the benefit of your Flowers skill instead.

 

The real power of omnis isn't to do anything well, it's to do a lot of things decently. The issue with that is that pillars generally lend themselves well to mimicking effects from other pillars, and if not that they lend themselves well to making the point moot.

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Enchant is not a pillar even if an important magical field.

(p,s - i had deleted the post, whle i could had edited, so i saw the nevermind post, but its better to let this tidbit here for future reference) :)

I must practice my ninja edit skills :ph34r:.

 

I mean combine Synch with Gates in regards of gateways of the mind to safeguard secrets, otherwise its very unlikely to blend. Would be most likely to mix with Astrology in my case

 

Between, what is a Gressel crew? i dont think i saw that word on the adventure, and google translator gave me no return

Yeah, that could work. I'm not sure whether Sync of Mastery would be better for that, but I'm fairly certain Sync would at least work, if not necessarily work as well.

 

And Gressel Crew is what I call Leene, Nhordum and Lotus - the name of their shop is Gressel's Medications ;).

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isadorbg, on 12 Sept 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

I am a bit with Metis on this whole omni-discussion to be honest.

 

As I've already said in an another discussion if each pillar is so big to be a feat to master only one (And indeed someone like Briardi seems like one of the best mages of the academagia for her mastery of Negation). Then you wonder how much of a pillar can someone learn when you learn all of them at the same time ! (the seven one even !)

 

I used the "Science" analogy with Magic, so discipline like Negation, Revision etc... would be replaced by Mathematics, Biology, Physics...

Who is better the one who focused math for 5 years or the one who studied every field available for 5 years.

While the second one will have an impressive knowledge on every field, it pales in comparison with the first one in his own field. Especially in the practical side that is often thaught in the last years after the theoritical knowledge is known.

 

I don't say this on the fly either. In France there is an old obsession with engineer with knowledge as broad as possible heck the most famous school is named "Polytechnique" and does exactly what the "omni-science" guy in my exemple does.

And those engineer are famous to suck on the technical side of their job to the point that many people don't really consider them engineer (especially outside france) altough they make correct manager (broad knowledge is a plus here.) and that's how they are trained nowadays.

 

That's why I wonder how much can an omni PC can achieve in comparison to a one pillar (or two) focused PC. Altough I consider that having all this knowledge of all the pillars may be an advantage in for exemple duel as like free said I think other mage would be surprised by all the different spell one could cast especially if it's possible to mix ton of pillar together. And it can be for the future interesting for pillar blending research.

And I am sure I can find other situation where the omni will shine by his versatility.

 

Tough like Metis I don't think they would get the same prestige or power that the pillar's Master have.

Right now we need at last 4 1/3 actions per level above 10 and the level 12 and up don't give any reward beside a better skill roll.

For me this means I might focus on some core skills of the char but no more then to 11 and afterwards I will focus on 'side' skills.

In my last few games I then got the core skills of other colleges to 10 because together with a high relationship with the Regent the char could change the college.

There is a other more important thought in that the year 1 core skills of a college will become the requirement of some class in year 2.

So yes I suspect that there will be some class that need Botany together with Negation even if at the moment I can't see what this class will teach!

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Right now we need at last 4 1/3 actions per level above 10 and the level 12 and up don't give any reward beside a better skill roll.

For me this means I might focus on some core skills of the char but no more then to 11 and afterwards I will focus on 'side' skills.

In my last few games I then got the core skills of other colleges to 10 because together with a high relationship with the Regent the char could change the college.

There is a other more important thought in that the year 1 core skills of a college will become the requirement of some class in year 2.

So yes I suspect that there will be some class that need Botany together with Negation even if at the moment I can't see what this class will teach!

 

I asked the Legate some times ago in the question thread if the futur specialised classes will raise the core skill. He said no but he also said that raising up the specialised skill will "greatly helps" raising the core skill. I also suspect that classes will play a more important role in raising skills above year 1 treshold along with "tutored" skills.

 

So my guess is that in the futur games, the specialised skill will be required to raise optimally the core skill wich will act more as a general representation of your mastery of the pillar itself than a class (I supsect the general pillar classes will disapear at some point).

 

Until a point when the difficulty of raising the core skill will be so big and the side skills so numerous that you will need to pretty much focus on one or two pillar to still progress at the same "pace". (not in year 2 yet I think)

 

So omni mage will at first see their progress slow as they struggle to learn all the new sub skills to reduce the penalty or focus directly on the main one until a time when they will begin to almost "stall" due to difficulty becoming so high and the skills so numerous that it will take to much time to make real progress in every pillar at once.

 

That's how I see it anyway.

 

What do you think legate ? Am I close to the to the truth ? :P

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Its absolute clear to me that the spread out in learning we managed to do in Year 1 is no longer possible in year 2 especial for the chars where we exploited the in DLC 16 reintroduced bug.

But having a good base already in year 1 can never be wrong ^^.

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I am going to agree with the sentiment that spread out learning will and indeed should become harder. I, however, still believe that I should be able to hit respectible marks on the main pillar skills, while no longer trying for atttributes and non-magical skills (like running was actually pretty useful in y1, So I went for it). I probably will not hit all 20's in all 6 main pillars but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try! (Mastery and Gates I will probably leave at 10 and call it a day, as that will still more than double them as of my end of Y1.)

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The Vernin wall is a great example of Enchantment being used to alter the battleground to your favor through powerful enchantments. That was a massive project however and I'm pretty sure a Very skilled Vernin student could do something similar in a much smaller scale and it wouldn't have to be as high quality or long lasting.

 

It would also be something that College Vernin students/professors would be very proud of once/if they hear about it and one of their students re-enacted one of their oldest traditions. The construction of enchanted defensive structures. It could just be one or a few rocks, or something more impressive. Maybe Revision and Enchantment to "relatively" expediently create what you need? Maybe a tiny bit of handiwork for the most imporant part.

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As fare we know so fare you need at last one regular path of magic for Enchant to be useful.

Still Enchantment seems to have it's own runes aswell, like the Enchantment rune.

 

I feel like Enchantment should be counted as a pillar of it's own, even if you combine it with others to add specific effects.

 

Then again, pillare are but an academic construct by the scholars who studied them.

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Enchantment has very specifics bits of Revision and Glamour in its core, its not clear mechanically but its said story and lorewise.

 

It's like Synch, you have to learn Mastery to use it, even if only for the embrace, but it does not earn you an automatic point in Mastery mechanically because its assumed that the Synch parent skill has that very specific part absorbed.

 

So Enchantment could not be classified as Pillar because its not independent like the others. Maybe a very influencial character could promove it to a pillar status storywise or the definition of pillars could change in a few years, but not right now.

 

I dont see the need to focus in another pillar while focusing on Enchantment, its not Independent as a pillar but its independent as a magical field and great for Artificers.

 

With all the respects due to Synch. Enchant is way bigger than Synch. :angry:

 

However despite being very important I don't think it deserves the pillar statue if only because as Schwarzbart said other pillar knowldege are required for big effect. A proof of the limit of that magic were real pillar can "almost" do anything of their own as long as you have the skill to pull it. :)

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It's also interesting how you can add revision, glamour or even mastery phemes to Incantation spells to modify or strengthen them. The pillars of magic do seem to be an academic construct based on the perceived effects of spells.

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I wouldn't like sharing, it seems risky. You need to be sure that they both have sufficiently questionable morals/ethics and that they are loyal enough not to betray you if they have second thoughts or are discovered. People with questionable morals aren't usually loyal by default.

 

Also, you are risking getting discovered due to their negligence/incompetence which is probably far more likely than the player messing up (who tends to have genius-level competence).

 

There is something nice about having a henchman though...

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Sharing seems like a great way to get caught and get executed in a variety of ways. The "get caught" part, though possibly the "get executed" part as well.

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If it does than one maybe two (un)timely uses of Schism and you're completely screwed. Honestly the only way you're going to be able to make that work is if you get each other stuck in a Morton's Fork situation where the only logical result of "do not work together" is "you both die". People are much more compliant when a matter clearly and visibly concerns their self-preservation.

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Cooperation might speed up studies and your friend might stumble onto something interesting.

But I agree with the people saying it would be dangerous to share, because it increases the risk of getting found out.

 

Maybe if you had one of those "superpowerful" tutors that even the "authorities" avoids messing with, then maybe you could keep doing your research and go about your day as long as you don't cause too much trouble.

Then you wouldn't have to worry about which friend knows or not, since the authorities already knows but chooses to stay away from you.

 

That seems very unlikely to happen, those wizards likely arn't very interested in teaching or grooming apprentices.

 

Or, maybe that's what Shuhanwitch or whatever it was called, was all about.

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Also, you are risking getting discovered due to their negligence/incompetence which is probably far more likely than the player messing up (who tends to have genius-level competence).

 

I am more worried about this than loyalty honestly even tough for something that can gets you death penalty I wouldn't say being mistrustful is a flaw.

 

But with all the risks of being caught practising or knowing illegal magic having close relationship knowing or sharing that knowledge puts you more at risk with limited plus in my eyes. (I can't find any advantages of a fellow forbideen student but feel free to correct me),

Especially if they are more careless/less talented that our PC.

 

The only people I would trust with sharing my secret "hobbies" would be with more powerfull persons like say a professor who share the same interest or a older student that may bring you knowledge and protection.

 

I think of this like the superhero "dilemna" but inversed.

 

The superheros don't like to share their secret identity to their relatives/friend because it's dangerous for them and the heros alike. (a superhero without a secret identity is in big trouble apparently and not only with the villains...)

 

Same with our Evily curious PC. Just switch the "good guys" and the "bad guys" in my precedent phrase. :P

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