Playing with/ Thoughts on the Game in General.

[Metis]

I vaguely remember reading something about when Mastery was proscribed a good chuck of it was shifted to Glamour, same with Gates and Revision. Assuming my memory hasn't failed me, maybe that's the reason. Who knows what a kid 500 years ago would have considered a Glamour.

[Albert]

Mastery was adopted as Revision, especialy the interrogation spells that used to be Mastery.

 

I don't know about Glamour but it wouldn't surprise me if that's also the case.

 

There isn't that much of a difference between being controled to do something through Glamour or Mastery. Both would requier you to fail a check against it's power.

The main difference might be that those under a Mastery spell might actualy be somewhat more aware of their loss of control while those under a Glamour might be blissfully delyrious, as if affected by a drug.

Still, to make that other person react the way you need them to you need to manipulate them and force them into something they otherwise wouldn't do. It's not of their own free will.

 

Mastery might, possibly be more traumatic since the victim might be more aware of their loss of control.

I think the main problem with mastery was that it was a favourite of the dragons, as a means of entertainment and enslavement of humanity. Anything Draconic had to be proscribed.

 

That "scary" lady that tried to hypnotise my character at the tavern, I think it was hypnosis rather than Mastery. Least it's my current guess.

While I certainly don't like the idea of people trying to take control of me, I would have liked to find out more.

[isadorbg]

Whether Mastery or Glamour is used if the victim is are acting crazy it will be potentially recognised (this is the Academagica, weird is normal). Having just seen a few RE's and adventure stages Glamour appears to include directly manipulating feelings/emotions, so the line between it and mastery is even more blurry that I thought.)

 

Yes but with Mastery you control the puppet directly so it is easier to make it behave "normally" if you wish. With Glammour it is harder especially if the illusion is big, hard to make someone act calm when you harass him with monstrous illusion to frighten him or something

But now that you talk avout what glammour affect (feeling/emotion) that's actually a weakness of Mastery I forgot actually, you can't influence those with Mastery yet another difference. (tough I guess you can make someone fakes it)

 

 

It's a bit academic really, pillars are so broad (and I suspect artificial) that the decision of which pillar to use is more a function of the situation and caster than the properties of any pillar - for any given situation there are probably several different pillars that could potentially be used to get the desired outcome if the student is reasonably skilled and creative so I'd expect that most things that could be done with Mastery could be done in one way or another by a different pillar except for the "hard-core" mental re-wiring type stuff.

 

Oh but I totally agree with you here. Especially for Mastery and Glammour HOWEVER if the outcome is the same the mean to get here are not at all that's what I disputed earlier. The more precise and complex the task given to a glammoured the more difficult it will be to have a "mastery like reaction". Like the bomb setting even in illusion I don't see how you can make someone makes a bomb (even with no knowledge) and write a memento accusing him with Glammour alone.

Same with the "keystone" adventure in this, the PC is mastered to ask a number of specific question to some guy.

How do you do that with Glammour ? plus the master had no contact whatsoever with the pc prior to this so that shows that you can master someone not close to you (probably has someone mastered close to the pc i guess). Probably an insight of what Mastery will be capable in later years... Again something Glammour can't do.

 

In theory you can achieve almost everything Mastery can do with Glammour. But the reality is that it doesn't really mean anything. Because like I have shown multiple time the amount of effort and skill required to make Glammour, Mastery like is tremendous. In all the exemple provided you not only need a strong illusion but also the skill of someone already very manipulative to create the adequate illusion and make the target behave as intended.

 

I honestly don't like the two magic to be compared in the same level like the post of albert above. You can't control someone with Glammour, mastery is only a master check vs you negation/will. Glamour even if you fail your negation/will check you still have Observation/Perception to realize you are in an illusion and Composure/Confidence to not react widly to stimuli if that was the intention of the Glammour.

 

Yep someone can make the argument that Glammour is like drugs (not really you have hallucination but not the mind numbing part) and like it you can manipulate them so does that mean drugs and mastery are alike ?

I can make many thing mastery can do with drugs and manipulation skill needed, surely drugs is as bad as Mastery right ? (forgeting my awesome manipulation skill in the process of course).

 

Oh and for the free will part, not you can't force someone to do something against their will with Glammour. You can fool them sure, but forcing ? nope. I guess it can count as a breach to free will tough.

 

But i like the drugs comparison tough. That's was my point with glammour. You can't make them do complex action only action that influenced by hallucination and feeling change.

You can make someone kill his friend with drugs but you can't make them create a bomb even less if they have no knowledge of it etc... .

[Svinik]

Glamour and Mastery will often be seen in a similar way as the mage is basically trying to get their victim to do something rather than doing it themselves (which is why both are pillars for under-skilled or lazy mages ). As you say there are differences between how the two do it, but the core concept has a lot of overlap, Glamour has the entertainment/etc aspect of pure illusions, I suspect that Mastery has a similar "mastery-only" side but don't know it well enough to consider it much - ask Metis or Freespace2dotcom...

 

I think that part of the reason for the apparent difference of opinion is a potential different view of what words like "control" mean, for example I look at neuroscience and perceive a near absence of what is commonly seen as free-will - it simply doesn't exist at a given point in time as far as I can see - so I see influencing someone's perceptions/emotions as a "press tab A create reaction B and leave them to generate a reason C why they think they did it" type approach which is perhaps closer to "controlling their mind" than those who see free-will as an active directing force of personality would consider influencing perceptions to be, I also tend to see Mastery as less direct than you - I would expect the (particularly the weaker) mastery spells to be less "dominating" and more "influencing" behaviour which again brings the two closer together.

 

I see both as able to overcome freewill, Glamour by avoiding the refusal (the old "hypnosis can't make you eat a raw onion, but it can make you think that the onion is an apple and then you'll eat it" approach), Mastery by over-riding it or reshaping it.

 

I would however disagree with Albert. The main difference between Glamour and Mastery is that if they find out you glamoured them they are embarressed and you may have to pay a fine / do some community service / etc, if they find out you mastered them you get executed. It's an important safety tip to bear in mind - or excuse to fast-talk with if they collar you. "No officer, I didn't master him into breaking into the bank, I glamoured him into thinking it was his home, see, the glamour has left him all confused..."

[Metis]

My specialty isn't proper Mastery, sorry to disappoint.

[isadorbg]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But you again miss my point. Glammour can do nothing by it's own.

 

Can you make someone to kill something with Glammour ? no.

Can you make them in the state of the mind to do it ? yes.

 

Add this to the difficulty to do this and you have all the difference you need.

The drugs exemple is actually perfect in that regard. Does drugs count as mind-controll ? even if they are you can admit it's not easy to make someone drugs do something crazy even if possible ?

 

I disagree with you with the difficutly of Mastery.

Year 1 has plenty of exemple of what Mastery can do, the "Keystone" adventure first; the ability of our PC if he learns Mastery (puppet a student and make them do whatever).

Where Glammour has been shown to do similar feat in year 1 ?

I agree that Glammour can do "in theory" close to Mastery spell but I saw nothing like what mastery can achieve with year 1 skill.

[isadorbg]

My specialty isn't proper Mastery, sorry to disappoint.

 

I agree with Svinik here. Even if you specialty is not proper Mastery, you are still one of the most knowledgable people in this forum on Mastery. (the other one being our omni-obssesed friend of course).

Even if it's mostly on Synchro, it's still count as Mastery (deal with it ). In fact if I was the legate you would be the first I execute for unhealthy curiosity on forbidden pillars as a testament of your deep knowledge.

Unfortunatly I am not there yet. But it will soon change with the helps of our dragons friends. So keep hope.

[Metis]

Most of what I know is rampant speculation that is only assumed to be true in absence of the Legate correcting me. The question is whether he didn't contradict me on anything because nothing I've said is (technically) wrong, or because the team plans on pulling out surprises in Y2 that are entirely legitimate because "This and that are X? No, we never said that".

[freespace2dotcom]

I have to chime in here.

I see Mastery magic as being a method of relaying information. You are telling a brain such and such, and it processes that as needed.

Glamour is more...Indirect. And thus inefficient. (at least for the Mastery-esque part of getting people to do things.) Which is probably the real reason why Glamour isn't regulated. It's like laying a coin down and expecting people to pick it up. Some might not see it, others might not think it valuable enough to bother with, etc.

 

I do think that a glamour could get somebody to kill, but it would require knowing the person and custom tweaking the magic. Honestly, imo if you're going to do something like make somebody commit murder, I fail to see how using Mastery to do it would make the situation worse. If anything it would make it simpler and harder to track..... but that is a strong argument for a ban so I won't go there.

Apart from that random factor based on the brain's free will to choose what information to process, there is pretty much no difference. I firmly believe that there are situations where bypassing that will could make the difference between life and death. If Di Cossa used Glamour instead of Mastery, would anyone have even known about him, let alone come to save him? Granted he probably didn't need to use it as much as he did, but I don't think he did anyone any great harm as far as I can tell.

I don't much care for sync. If mixing it with regular Mastery is BAD™ and not to mention I have to limit my own freedom by having my name on a list, count me out. It's similar to why I don't much care for Schohanwicht. I see too many strings to feel comfortable.

[isadorbg]

The Loremaster has spoken ! Hear the truth !

 

Here's someone else to add to my execution list. hmm... number 4 perfect ! ha all the tough things to do for the greater good !

[Albert]

Glamour seems to be more mind altering where as Mastery tends to specificly target certain aspects, like body control or partial bodily functions. It's kind of like posessing someones body to different degrees.

 

One thing though... I noticed that even spells such as Master or Caligraphy Formal Invitations only allows you to choose their activity, but it won't allow you to choose exactly what they are doing.

 

If I Master Philipe and tell him to bully then I think he could still "choose" to bully me(Because control won't allow me to choose.. The choice is made at the end of your turn, and since it doesn't go into my window, it goes into the NPC's window and he/she picks whoever they don't like if it's a hostile action.

I don't know if that's an intended mechanic or limitation of the engine.

 

Which Makes mastery be kind of like saying "You will now Bully someone!" then Philipe goes ahead and punches me in the face and starts throwing insults...

 

If I use Glamour to inspire a bullying mood then he might, again go and punch me and start insulting me..

 

One implants the idea, the other strongly urges the idea to the point where the individual thinks it's what he she wants to do or needs.

 

For the victim to resist either they need very specific skill sets. Both makes a person do things they likely wouldn't have done otherwise.

 

I'm thinking it's a Y1 engine limitation that's not allowing us to choose the controlled students actions more specificly.

[isadorbg]

How do you "inspire someone to be in a bullying mood" with Glammour ?

 

edit: I mean I know you can make them angry or upset but really I don't know how you can make someone think "I am gonna bully someone" .

[Albert]

I wonder if Y2 will pit a student's stats and abilities against event based incidents.

 

Like for example someone trying to master you as part of an Adventure.

 

If you got enough Insight and Negation to resist, what then? Maybe you could use your Acting skill and deceive the person behind it to figure out what they are up to and twart them more thoroughly, or use the knowledge you gained for your own gain.

 

Evil Mastery wizard: Ok, thrall you will do nicely, I want you to go and steal Orso Orsi's proscribed object "X" that he's hidden under his bed. It's very valuable and useful.

 

You: *Acting* Blank stare, walk off. (Or give a monotone answer if one seems to be expected)

 

Then you go and steal the object for your own needs and set a nasty trap for the evil wizard who tried to use you.

 

Or you could go and tell the professors about his attempt, perhaps Orsi, since it was his proscribed stash that he was after. Then you might gain a few Relationship points and perhaps even some Merit for resisting the Mastery attempt and stopping the spread of proscribed items.

 

If you fail the save, you Get Mastered, do the deed, might get caught by the professor because you might not be at your best, this might get you freed of the Mastery effect by someone more skilled than you. Then you can tell the Professor about what happend and what was going on, and then help them capture the criminal.

 

It would offer you two ways to be a hero, but only one to take full control of the situation on your terms and make an actual choice how you want to play the event, with the possibility to beat the master at his/her own game and show who's the strongest.

You could then setup an elaborate plot that points him/her out as the perpetrator while you hide the artefact, and then get him/her killed just before they are about to get caught in what looks like selfdefence or better yet an accident caused by incompetence. If it looks like selfdefence then you might become a hero for stopping him, though they might wonder where the artifact got to, in both cases they could assume it got stashed away by the thief. It might be easier to avoid suspicion if they never knew you were there though Unless you're really good at misdirection and trickery.

[Albert]

How do you "inspire someone to be in a bullying mood" with Glammour ?

 

edit: I mean I know you can make them angry or upset but really I don't know how you can make someone think "I am gonna bully someone" .

Like you said, make them feel the need to let loose. Someoen like Philipe would likely do it out of a reflex if given a nudge.

 

Someone completely lacking the skill would be harder, then again I doubt it would work better to Master Bessia and think she can Bully anyone. Other than possibly bringign them bad luck, don't think that counts though.

[isadorbg]

Well, in the Vernin adventure "keystone". The PC is mastered and aparently s/he "loses consciousness" when mastered: Di Cossa asks some question to someone trough the player but the player only hears the answer not remembering asking the question and get confused. It may due to advanced Mastery but I believe that's the standard Mastery which also explain why nobody "realize" that they have been under Mastery when you use yourself the control spell.

 

The Second exemple is "The Outing" adventure altough it's from an animal and not a human. The effect on the player is funnily enough close to what Glammour is supposed to do in this topic (hallucination mostly). Altough the player seems to have completly lost control of his body even if he still believes not in his hallucination (the reverse of Glammour arguably).

 

In all of this exemple, the player fail to realize that his assaulted by Mastery before it's too late (maybe due to inexperience ?) and doesn't know at all of the Masterer motives/wishes even after being mastered.

 

A true puppet.

[Albert]

Strange, my character never lost conciousness in the Keystone adventure other than that initial accident with the Rune that was being ingraved in front of all the Professors and half the school.

Due to Rui playing you a prank. I can't recall any Mastery before your first journey in the Red ship.

 

Then later when I go to the chappel because he's mastering pretty much everyone else around me and telling me to go there...

Then outside he has masterd other people telling me he's down that well or sometihng and that I need to go down there and free him. That's where I find Bori I think it was, I open the door. Find Cossa, then he asked me for permission to strengthen me to carry him back to school. Apparently he needed my characters permission, and my character did get physicaly stronger from his spell but didn't loose conciousness.

 

I don't know if there was a save in there, maybe my character was too strong to get Mastered? so he mastered everyone else around my character freakign out the professors, who told me not to go there, but apparently my character didn't think there was much of a choice given what was happening to everyone else.

 

I'll have to check that adventure out in the mod tool, it's one of my favrite adventures. I've never been mastered though. In such a way that I lost control or conciousness.

 

The mute lady on the pirate ship and the Wyvern in another adventure knocked me out though... Damn that lady... It was pretty rude imo, even if she didn't hurt me.

 

EDIT: I always train my characters in Negation since it seems like a very useful skill to know in a place where most dangers are magic related or can be overcome with Negation. Maybe my characters Negation and insight surpassed his abilities to master, which made him master everyone else?

I can't find the Keystone adventure in my mod tool, maybe my files are too old? or maybe it's not part of that package. The only spell he manged to cast on my character was the one done with my characters permission and my character didn't pass out.

[isadorbg]

*Sigh* you should read the whole phrase. I said

 

The PC is mastered and aparently s/he "loses consciousness" when mastered: Di Cossa asks some question to someone trough the player but the player only hears the answer not remembering asking the question and get confused

 

Anyway i looked for the text in the modtool. Grr what I have to do the works of minion ? For the trouble you are now 3rd on my "special" list. Congratz.

 

What can you say? It's fine? You're starting to like the way it looks? You're daydreaming about buying a house in Calamina, in spitting distance of the Wall, and living out the rest of your days with unnatural fitness and good health?

 

It's fine, you say.

 

He grins again. Then he looks away, and looks back at you with a bit of surprise. "Vera di Cassatta?" he asks. "Why do you want to know about her? How do you even know her name?"

 

You ask him what he's talking about. What you say doesn't seem to be what he hears.

 

"You're a very strange person," he says, in a friendly kind of way. "Well, come on. You can't go into the library yourself, but I can get the book out for you." He goes trotting off; you're uneasy, but you follow along, if only to keep him out of trouble. "We don't have much of her stuff here," he says. "I mean, you wouldn't believe how many Astrologers went goofy in the head over the years and started writing prophecies on the Wall. We just can't keep track of all of it. The only reason I even know her name is that sane Astrologers think that business you were talking about - the Champion of the Wall and the Boy the Dragons Chose - is coming up on us fast. You think you're the Champion or something? I guess I've heard crazier, bright-knuckles." He starts whistling as he walks.

 

Then the whistling trails off.

 

"Where were we going, again?" he asks.

 

The library, you say. About Vera di Cassatta.

 

He gives you a very strange look. "I don't know where you heard that name, but trust me: it's not a name you want to hear a second time. I don't care, but the Order gets really sniffy about people who 'meddle' in its secrets."

 

 

then this is what you got as gates option:

 

You don't want to know.

 

Persuasion. Whatever's going on here, it's important. Tell Bori what just happened, and get him to tell you what he knows.

 

Negation Spells. This forgetfulness has to be the work of some kind of Glamour, right? See if you can wash it off of him.

 

Actually you are both mastered by Di Cossa and it cause memory problem apparently.

 

Edit: Now that I have reread it it might appear Bori is the only one mastered here. Interesting still this with the outing it still shows the mastered has trouble understanding what's going on.

[freespace2dotcom]

It was my understanding that Bori was the one who was Mastered, as if the player would lose consciousness, the player wouldn't learn what Di Cossa was trying to get across... Which was a warning. If he had simply Mastered the player, then eventually it would have been found out and then what?

[Albert]

No, Bori was glamoured when you return to the chapterhouse. Or possibly Mastered, but I think it seems more like a Glamour since he was himself just somewhat less perceptive and present and slighlty lulled as if on drugs (Glamour). I think it's pretty evident that it was Eustacio's work, Cossa wasn't able to act until Eustacio had collapsed pretty much the whole chapterhouse and the wards holding him imprissoned for all these years. It was just an appetiser for Eustacio.

 

This wasn't done by Di Cossa, but rather the Master of the Order(Eustacio) who was planning to consume the Enchantments of the wall and make himself young again.. Apparently a Dragon had convinced him it would make him young and he was old, frail and possibly slowly dying.

 

Cossa was locked up on their dungeon and got a chance to break through the wards when the chapterhouse was corrupted by betrayal from within and this traitor that feed on the enchantments of the chapterhouse to get some strength before his main course at the wall(Eustacio).

 

Later as people are getting mastered around you are lead to Cossa who's improssoned down in a dungeon at the bottom of a well. There you find Bori I think it was, Mastered.

 

The Gates and Mastery mastery Cossa, it's Eustacio that's the true enemy in that adventure, the enemy is the master of the Altruin order chapterhouse. Who is trying to regain his youth by feeding on the walls enchantments to regain his youth. The wall has worked as a magical defence agaisnt the dragons however, and apparently, once you defeat him and his dragon friend has been driven away you learn that they told him it would bring him back his youth.

 

Cossa is merely there to give you a ride using Gates if you havn't got the flawless timing skill to fly the red ship. He might become a returning character in later years though as he intends to conquer the world to secure it from dragons... Using dragons.... So, yeah...

[Albert]

I wonder if the Aultrine Order will rebuild the chapterhouse in Mineta eventually.

 

Anyway, it was all part of a Dragon conspiracy to corrupt the wall which was a threat to dragon dominance. Eustacio was a willing tool who was prepared to betray his order and consume the wall he had protected his whole life just to get young again.

 

Cossa, just happend to be a prisoner that had been keept prisoner by Eustacio and the Aultrine Order for summoning a Dragon many years ago, that he had intended to enslave in order to conquer the empire and make it safe from dragons.(crazy guy)

Cossa would provide a way of rapid transit in case the Character lacked the flawlesstiming skill to control the Redship.

No matter what, Cossa escapes and goes back to persue his dreams of worlddomination and becomming emperor...... I got at least one or two characters who will crush him to take over as emperor if he tries...

[Metis]

Just a point of order:

 

How do you "inspire someone to be in a bullying mood" with Glammour ?

 

edit: I mean I know you can make them angry or upset but really I don't know how you can make someone think "I am gonna bully someone" .

Frenzy (Pheme)

[freespace2dotcom]

Cossa, just happend to be a prisoner that had been keept prisoner by Eustacio and the Aultrine Order for summoning a Dragon many years ago, that he had intended to enslave in order to conquer the empire and make it safe from dragons.(crazy guy)

 

I don't think that's the case. Sure he's a Mastery user but it's never said why he Mastered a Dragon. (If he indeed did so, we don't know this 100%)

 

He may have simply wanted to test if he could do so in case Dragons Invaded so that he could turn them against themselves. What Legate Orsi said is conjecture, based on Mastery's 'evil' history. Di Cossa only stated that he wanted to reunite the territories of the empire, and only that. While he may be as evil as they say I reserve my judgment until I see more.

[Albert]

Who knows, didn't sound like he objected really.

[isadorbg]

Just a point of order:

 

Frenzy (Pheme)

 

 

Possible Effects:

Increase Strength +1

Decrease Awareness -1

Decrease Temperance -1

Increase Prosecution Chance +50%

Note

Prosecution Chance is a variable that determines how likely a student is to respond to a hostile action with violence. Base levels range from 2% (Piccolet Gleyre) to 20% (Sima Venesico, surpassing even Joana and Philippe's 15%).

 

 

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

 

Bullying may be defined as the activity of repeated, aggressive behavior intended to hurt another person, physically or mentally. Bullying is characterized by an individual behaving in a certain way to gain power over another person

 

Edit: Responding to a hostile action with violence is not bullying. Not my definition at least.

 

Edit 2: If that's borderline mastery Glammour pheme then I am relieved. It only exacerbate the aggresive side of someone and take into account the personality.

With this we can conclude that it's tremendously difficult to make someone do something against his nature with Glammour like making a pacifist act violently for exemple. (seems free will is troublesome afterall ).

[Metis]

So if I use Bully (Action), but only once, it is not bullying? After all, doing it once isn't repeated behaviour.