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See, I think of learning Mastery as similar to learning surgery, except you don't have the option of using cadavers to practice on. It's much easier to cut someone open and remove something and leave horrible scarring than it is to do any kind of delicate work. If someone is very very good at Mastery, they might be able to do that more delicate surgical work, but the basics are just going to teach you how to clumsily shove someone's brain to make their body do what you want it to do. I mean, causing someone serious trauma IS easier than fixing that trauma. That's true even if you are just using mundane words and actions, no magic at all.

 

And that's WHY it's banned: because if you just let everyone learn it, there are going to be way more dabblers leaving scarred brains than surgeons who can fix those scars.

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I'm certain good can come from both Mastery and Gates, given the circumstances. It might be rare, but, those rare situations would likely present themselves every now and then.

 

With Gates, I think of situations where you and possibly others are trapped in a collapsing cave, if you then use Gates to save people and teleport them to a teleportation stone (for increased stability), then that should be considered good).

 

Granted, you really don't want to show off Gates skills due to the laws, so some might argue it's better to leave your friends to die and save yourself since the judges might decide to hang you for saving peoples lives!

I'm not sure about it, but would the law want to kill you for saving peoples lives, in a life and death emergency?

 

So, in essence, you save peoples lives so they can testify against you? The law, might then be blind and ask the one and only question, did you use Gates magic? It's punishable by death! With no exceptions to circumstance it would be a horrible law, but given the way I've seen laws work it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Unless of course the people you saved decides to lie in court, out of gratitude. If that's enough and they don't employ some form of Mastery to get the truth.

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And that's WHY it's banned: because if you just let everyone learn it, there are going to be way more dabblers leaving scarred brains than surgeons who can fix those scars.

 

I disagree. The problem with mastery is what it does with freewill of the puppet: it nullifies it making the subject nothing more than the slave of the mage even worse it will be a consenting slave because the Master can change the puppet personnality as much as he wants and it's emotion, knowledge in one word: it's being.

 

Of course a novice can't achieve such feats and while it's true that a beginner can make dangerous mistake such istrue for all the magics (fire in towns because of incantation?) while the Master can enslave Kings, Regents maybe even Dragons. Heck the Legate has almost confirmed that you it's technally possible to enslaved a whole village to your will.

 

Like I already said Mastery would have certainly been banned in real life. In our society wich values freedom and democracy such vile magic that's threat our very beings and consciousness cannot be tolerated.

 

 

Fear not the Neophyte. Fear the Master for you are his slave.

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I'm certain good can come from both Mastery and Gates, given the circumstances. It might be rare, but, those rare situations would likely present themselves every now and then.

 

With Gates, I think of situations where you and possibly others are trapped in a collapsing cave, if you then use Gates to save people and teleport them to a teleportation stone (for increased stability), then that should be considered good).

 

Granted, you really don't want to show off Gates skills due to the laws, so some might argue it's better to leave your friends to die and save yourself since the judges might decide to hang you for saving peoples lives!

I'm not sure about it, but would the law want to kill you for saving peoples lives, in a life and death emergency?

 

So, in essence, you save peoples lives so they can testify against you? The law, might then be blind and ask the one and only question, did you use Gates magic? It's punishable by death! With no exceptions to circumstance it would be a horrible law, but given the way I've seen laws work it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Unless of course the people you saved decides to lie in court, out of gratitude. If that's enough and they don't employ some form of Mastery to get the truth.

 

 

Problem is that Gates is a very dangerous and chaotic magic. You might have saved you friends but you could have opened a portal to gods know where or even blew up the whole island.You won't be executed because you saved you friends but life imprisonment is you likely fate. It's not only use of Gates that is illegal. Knowledge of it is also punishable by death so yeah no escape for this one.

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Problem is that Gates is a very dangerous and chaotic magic. You might have saved you friends but you could have opened a portal to gods know where or even blew up the whole island.You won't be executed because you saved you friends but life imprisonment is you likely fate. It's not only use of Gates that is illegal. Knowledge of it is also punishable by death so yeah no escape for this one.

That's interesting, the courts shoudl round up the professors then ;) On of my students infiltrated the teacher Lounge I think it was and hid behind some furniture while they were discussing Gates magic. My studnet learned enough from listening to them to gain information on all 4 basic Gates sub-skills.

It seems the faculty knows Gates, at least the basics of it, some might know more than just the basics.

 

Killing people just for knowing something seems like a slippery slope, and very bad for any kind of civilised society.

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That's interesting, the courts shoudl round up the professors then ;) On of my students infiltrated the teacher Lounge I think it was and hid behind some furniture while they were discussing Gates magic. My studnet learned enough from listening to them to gain information on all 4 basic Gates sub-skills.

It seems the faculty knows Gates, at least the basics of it, some might know more than just the basics.

 

Killing people just for knowing something seems like a slippery slope, and very bad for any kind of civilised society.

 

Well depends, if knowledge can be used as a weapon of mass destruction. What can you do?

 

for the teacher lounge part thats because apparently the engine cannot filter what skills you gets for random ss. So that's a gameplay limitation but hey maybe some teachers are not that honest. ;)

 

and apparently you can get away with very basic knowledge of gates. it still vague how much you can get away with but i think that at aroud 8 in the main skill you crossed the ''dead line'' :P:P

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Well depends, if knowledge can be used as a weapon of mass destruction. What can you do?

 

for the teacher lounge part thats because apparently the engine cannot filter what skills you gets for random ss. So that's a gameplay limitation but hey maybe some teachers are not that honest. ;)

 

and apparently you can get away with very basic knowledge of gates. it still vague how much you can get away with but i think that at aroud 8 in the main skill you crossed the ''dead line'' :P:P

Not at all, it wasn't random. It was one of the more itneresting random event's I've had, I used Infiltration instead of listening in at the door, then hide to hide behind a piece of furniture.

 

Then the event proceded with the professors expressively discussing Gates, and there was text about it aswell, that you had heard rumors that these discussions happend in the Teacher launge but now you had actualy witnessed it.

 

It wasn't a random skill addition but an intentional choice to have the teachers discuss gates and inform the student that had infiltrated their most sacred sanctum, of all the subskills of gates.

 

And the duration of this discussion was so long that my character was starting to feel very uncofortable about the hiding place, then a few of the professors left the room which opend up an opportunity to sneak out. So, yes, the professors would be in trouble if they were "examined" and their minds probed for illegal knowledge.

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Not at all, it wasn't random. It was one of the more itneresting random event's I've had, I used Infiltration instead of listening in at the door, then hide to hide behind a piece of furniture.

 

Then the event proceded with the professors expressively discussing Gates, and there was text about it aswell, that you had heard rumors that these discussions happend in the Teacher launge but now you had actualy witnessed it.

 

It wasn't a random skill addition but an intentional choice to have the teachers discuss gates and inform the student that had infiltrated their most sacred sanctum, of all the subskills of gates.

 

And the duration of this discussion was so long that my character was starting to feel very uncofortable about the hiding place, then a few of the professors left the room which opend up an opportunity to sneak out. So, yes, the professors would be in trouble if they were "examined" and their minds probed for illegal knowledge.

 

 

Wait thats awesome!! for once the blackmail skill will serve its purpose hehe :ph34r::ph34r: . (never had this event unfortunaly pff)

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Wait thats awesome!! for once the blackmail skill will serve its purpose hehe :ph34r::ph34r: . (never had this event unfortunaly pff)

That would be itneresting, gaining knowledge of their "knowledge" and use it as leverage. As I understand it the Professors are very private about all such things that don't involve what they are teaching. So, yes, that would have been a goldmine for a blackmailer. I doubt it was added into the game mechanics however. But it would definately be there and that event indicates that the Teachers do have some level of knowledge of the prohibited arts even if they avoid using it.

 

Considering a first year can pick it up so easily it would be hard to imagine wizards who have spent decades studying magic, using magic and ran across crazy events to stay oblivious to knowledge that's pretty much shoved into their faces wether want it or not.

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Commentated quote fest 2014 reloaded: Electric boogaloo.

 

Maybe but thats also why the Mark is there isn't it? I could argue that doctor trough their study learn quite a lot of ways to kill people with their deep knwoledge of the human body but quite fortunaly those study focus more about how to heals the body than harms it and only a few "unstable" one uses their knowledge to do harm (altough the na** showed us that even great doctor can find horrible way to kill people en mass).

So why not the reverse? Study Mastery for it's good part? For me like i said earlier in this thread all pillar are very broad subject on their own and can have potientally very broad utilites afterall sync itself was a part of Mastery (and still is for myself).

I can imagine someone wanting to study it for what good it can do, but mechanically it currently doesn't have one. Pretty much the only not-obviously hostile spell is Seal Against Mastery, which kinda says something about the rest of it.

 

Well i disagree. I consider the Methods to be the magical knowledge to use the pillar not the mental skills, things like hand waving, the stance etc.. Ek even the lore agrees with me;

 

Quote

Mastery Methods is a skill that encompass everything from folks wisdom to tips about wand technique; it's not as easily defined as Mastery Phemes or Mastery Spells, but as a line of study it's no less important if you really mean to seize control of you fellow human beings.

 

 

Ok forget the last part :P:P, my point still stand as being a knowledge not covered by the sync subsill and important for it but again as the legate said

 

Quote

You don't need the basic Skill necessarily to improve an advanced Skill, but it helps immensely.

 

 

Which mean everything really, you can improve you Syn whithout using Mastery but it will be a lot easier if you do increase the basic skill too. I think you block on the morality of Mastery too much and forget that Sync itself is an offshoot of Mastery so saying that the knowledge of the latter helps to master the former for me at least is not that illogical really..

I don't know if Sync uses many wand techniques. There's the initial spell to connect and the rest is entirely mental, I think. I'll need to check the adventure for this (which is why an updated modbase would be really helpful)...found it:

"What's the difference between when you do and Mastery? Or...what?"

"There isn't a difference. I cast a Mastery spell and use my other skills to direct that magic into doing the things I want it to do. This seal prevents me from casting any Mastery spell other than the one I need to."

 

And those other skills I imagine are Composure, Listen, and to a lesser extend Ethics, since that's what the PC is prompted to learn. Although on the flip side, it's possible the PC simply isn't allowed to learn any Mastery until s/he receives the Master's Mark. Would explain why you're not prompted to look into the Theory, as well.

That's what i said, so maybe for the future synchro, some phemes found under Mastery Phemes might be usefull for sync? So let's agree that Theory, Methods and Phemes might be useful ok ? :P

Theory I can get behind, Phemes not really, and Methods? See above. Sync doesn't need a whole lot of Phemes, and most are kinda all over the place anyway. Zenith, to name one example, is typed as a Glamour Pheme you get from either Mastery Phemes 9 or Revision Phemes 5. The Serenity Pheme you can get from Serenity 3, Composure 9, or Gates Phemes 9, among others. If you really need a certain Pheme for Sync, I don't think Mastery Phemes will be the only source thereof.

 

I did'nt say that Leena forced her way only that she could and the exemple you gave is a good actually remember that she made contact with the PC without our consent? so she already Sync us before asking even if it was for good i can still see how she can abuse her power especially the fact that you feel really powerless in that part of the advendure but really what i meant is that in many ways Sync and Mastery are very alike (for good reason !! :D ) and the real difference is in the intention of the User not the Magic itself.

It's true you can Embrace someone without their express consent, but it makes for a hander/impossible job. When Leene found the PC unconscious, tripping and being snacked on by a Sageni that specifically used his Mastery skills to trick him/her into offering no mental or physical resistance s/he was still resisting Leene's efforts, even in that sorry state. You'll recall:

"Do you remember when I Mastered you, how you opened your heart after a while?". You think, and quietly ask "That's when your emotions started to change me, right? I remember feeling something 'click' before that happened, I think..."

 

Giving out permission is just a way of saying that you won't interfere with the caster, which is what the PC did until Leene's utter lack of harmful intent during the operation convinced the PC to trust her, and things escalated from there:

"How much trust you placed in me at that point, trust you lost control of, how you gave your feelings to me when you got overwhelmed, scared, and wanted help? For your operation it's debatable whether it was truly necessary, but for most people I see that's what they need to go through."

 

Recall also that Leene was still looking for traces of the suggestion even after you had to stare down the warped tree? And how Leene's attempt at communicating with the PC while s/he was tripping was rocky, at first? That's from the PC actively resisting her efforts until s/he decided to trust her. Leene can Embrace without the subject's consent, she just can't do a whole hell of a lot, which kinda limits the evil potential. Not "removes", mind you, you can cause a lot of harm with improper Syncing, it just takes some...creativity and metric tons of subtlety to do so intentionally. And some very specific scenarios so as not to run into the Mastery/Sync paradoxes.

 

Good question. Why guns aren't outlawed in USA ? that's beyond me but well..

 

For Gates, that's because of the chaos factor that can lead to catastroph like a year 1 mage summoning a Dragon some even say that the destruction of Monteon was caused by Gates but who knows?

 

For Mastery, well because someone mastered lose is freewill which something that us human found really amoral for some reasons.

 

But the real answers is for the Elumnian the "good" that those magic could bring are outweigh by the potential evil they coul bring :)

Yeah, I can see people objecting to magic that always has a chance, if a slim one, to summon a Dragon in the town square. And I'm the last person at this point that should be defending Mastery at this point, so, eh, yeah.

 

Considering a first year can pick it up so easily it would be hard to imagine wizards who have spent decades studying magic, using magic and ran across crazy events to stay oblivious to knowledge that's pretty much shoved into their faces wether want it or not.

If teaching any Gates/Mastery magic at all was illegal the Sphinx would have so many death sentences hanging above her head that a crown would be the least of her worries.

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I really have no idea what utopian world you live in where society 'values freedom and democracy'. Pretty sure everyone in power here is doing everything they can to erode that.

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Elumia.

I wasn't aware that Freedom and Democracy was held in such high esteem in Elumia, even if it has moved in that direction after the last of the emperors departed the world.

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Uhmm..... Are you all role-playing angry professors arguing with one another? Because the exchange is starting to look hostile. ._.

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If we are I seriously hope you're not the student that's been listening to all of that while hiding under a desk, because that's going to result in all kinds of awkward conversations.

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Nope, it was me, and I was taking notes the whole while.

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"Hello Legate Orsi, I swear we have a perfectly good explanation for why we were loudly discussion the various forms of Mastery in the teacher's lounge while free here was hiding under a desk listening to every word we said. And taking notes. Honest." - Dead man walking.

 

Now that I think about it, Sync might be the magic of choice for spies. Very skilled individuals can sync with others without the latter knowing, the practice is all but unknown due to both the ban on Mastery and the less-than sparkling reputation that Mastery has, Sync itself isn't something that's seen as appropriate to talk about in public even back in before the ban on Mastery much less after, and it's difficult to completely shut someone using Sync out without using magic. The person syncing in that way would only be able to read what is presently on a person's mind, which isn't much, but if that's enough...

 

I imagine the problems with that is that the spell used to Sync technically is still a Mastery spell, so any measures taken to combat Mastery would work on it as well. And anyone worthy of being targeted by a spy would naturally have some protection in place against Mastery.

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"Hello Legate Orsi, I swear we have a perfectly good explanation for why we were loudly discussion the various forms of Mastery in the teacher's lounge while free here was hiding under a desk listening to every word we said. And taking notes. Honest." - Dead man walking.

 

Now that I think about it, Sync might be the magic of choice for spies. Very skilled individuals can sync with others without the latter knowing, the practice is all but unknown due to both the ban on Mastery and the less-than sparkling reputation that Mastery has, Sync itself isn't something that's seen as appropriate to talk about in public even back in before the ban on Mastery much less after, and it's difficult to completely shut someone using Sync out without using magic. The person syncing in that way would only be able to read what is presently on a person's mind, which isn't much, but if that's enough...

 

I imagine the problems with that is that the spell used to Sync technically is still a Mastery spell, so any measures taken to combat Mastery would work on it as well. And anyone worthy of being targeted by a spy would naturally have some protection in place against Mastery.

That's why you carefuly probe the area for unusual effects and telltale signs of magic, anyone putting up unusual defences might be very interesting indeed!

 

But, Syncing with everyone you suspect might have something interesting for you seems far over the top. Also, it seems like the way Sync was depicted in game sugests it works best in close proximity, and perhaps even with a focus item like that rock.

 

Still all these sugestions and points of view are very interesting.

 

I wouldn't suggest trying to break into a professors head without permission, sounds like a bad idea. I think the more traditional approaches work best unless, it's end of this professor that's going to jail for the rest of their life, and you have been tasked by the Captain of mineta or the Legate to interrogate this person. (I doubt they would ask that of a student)

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Sync indeed works best that way, but even if something works only barely, it still works. It would indeed take tremendous skill, though. If that's possible it's not something either Nhordum or Leene is able to do, much less the PC.

 

Wouldn't suggest Embracing a professor either, but if you get in just the right situation their head becomes your canvas. Say a professor gets caught by a Sageni, well, what are they going to do? Cast Seal Against Mastery? Object? It probably wouldn't be that easy anyway, though. Remember that Leene was having trouble when the PC was working against her, I doubt the PC would have much luck against a professor working against him/her. And yes, no way in hell the PC gets asked to do something like interrogate someone for the authorities, that's something that Nhordum's parents do.

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So would the Seal Against Mastery spell work on Sync? Or is that spell the primary ingredient in the Master's Mark?

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Most spells you learn from Sync aren't actually Mastery spells, obviously since otherwise the Mark would prevent you form using them. Zone of Calm, to name one example, is a Glamour. However, the spell that initiates an Embrace is most definitely a Mastery spell, based on what it does and Leene's exact words:

"I cast a Mastery spell and use my other skills to direct that magic into doing the things I want it to do. This seal prevents me from casting any Mastery spell other than the one I need to."

 

Being a Mastery spell it would follow that Seal Against Mastery would indeed interfere with it. As for the Mark, though, I'm not sure. I don't know if it's possible in the lore to, say, tattoo the Phemes of Seal Against Mastery on a person and have that become a spell that's always active or (re-)activates under the right conditions, etc. And I don't know how easily, if at all, one could take Seal Against Mastery and change it's effects to make an exception for the Embrace spell.

 

What I can tell you is that Nhordum, who applies the Mark on the PC, is trained with Enchant, and if he needed to study Mastery at any point (especially to learn how to apply the Mark) he certainly could have done so. In addition accepting the Mark is a voluntary process, so if, say, body tattoos are possible but impractical due to how easily they can be interfered with, well, that won't be an issue in this instance.

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I really have no idea what utopian world you live in where society 'values freedom and democracy'. Pretty sure everyone in power here is doing everything they can to erode that.

 

Maybe, but all this talks about the "freedom of speech", liberty would be quite funny if our "freedom of thought" was not even guaranteed.

 

 

I can imagine someone wanting to study it for what good it can do, but mechanically it currently doesn't have one. Pretty much the only not-obviously hostile spell is Seal Against Mastery, which kinda says something about the rest of it.

 

If teaching any Gates/Mastery magic at all was illegal the Sphinx would have so many death sentences hanging above her head that a crown would be the least of her worries.

 

Again thats only the year 1 Mastery but i see that i won't convince youn maybe you're right and Sync doesn't need to study it's parent skill at all but i still believe that someone who study both has a better understanding of Sync that the one who doesn't if only to use the Methods on the initial mastery spells :P :P :P .

 

For the Sphinx well i guess he count has a "pre-ban relic" or something.

 

 

wouldn't suggest trying to break into a professors head without permission, sounds like a bad idea. I think the more traditional approaches work best unless, it's end of this professor that's going to jail for the rest of their life, and you have been tasked by the Captain of mineta or the Legate to interrogate this person. (I doubt they would ask that of a student)

 

Actually that could be a great Adventure! not really the interrogation in itself but imagine you have to sync someone and you discover that he has a lot of knowledge of Master and/or Gates. What do you do? Could be great i believe :)

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First thing I'd do is make sure the guy is as unaware of me as possible. That way I'd have a chance!

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First thing I'd do is make sure the guy is as unaware of me as possible. That way I'd have a chance!

 

Yeah i can see how it'll goes.

 

"Discovery of illegal magic"

 

The Sync dude: Is something wrong ?

 

[Composure] Nothing important, don't worry.

 

"Roll Failure"

 

You: Holy SH** !! You are a Gate User! i'm so gonna tell this to everyone! "desync" Hey everyone! This dude is a Gate mage! Oh Gods !!!

 

:P:P:P

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The connection established during an Embrace goes both ways, though unless the subject knows about Embraces they'll probably be unable to comprehend what's happening and, by extend, what information the caster is digging up.

 

If the PC has at least Mastery 2 when you initiate An Outing... Leene ends up in that exact situation. As for what to do, well, on paper House Kazus (which includes the PC if they have the Mark) is honour-bound to turn in anyone found to be studying forbidden magic. Of course in practice it's not that simple, as the adventure has Leene refuse to turn you over to the guards. In part that's because she's fresh from an Embrace and that means she's kinda attached to you, if temporarily, in part because her training in Ethics demands that she does what's right, but primarily it's the adventure happily assuming that the PC studied Mastery to satisfy curiosity rather than the PC planning on enslaving others.

 

Fun Fact: Reading through that particular adventure stage, where Leene confronts a Mastery-studying PC, I see hints that apparently I was planning on having an option for the PC to just accept the Master's Mark and not be roped into learning Sync, but that apparently was never added (neither by myself or the team). Mind, given what's been discussed about the Master's Mark that probably wouldn't have worked anyway.

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