Jump to content
Black Chicken Studios Forums
Sign in to follow this  
freespace2dotcom

The 2015 FORBIDDEN Magic Discussion!

Recommended Posts

No, that's just the Random Number God being a troll. Believe me, once you go back to actually trying to unlock the Gates subskills rather than getting detention you'll be slapped with the latter left and right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough. Although it also probably had something to do with the fact that I was doing this with a completed character that had a few reductions to chance of detection seeing as how I was doing it in the summer months to save time from starting from scratch.

 

Ooh, that reminds me, there ought to be an adventure that gives you something like the book of deep shadows, only for gates. I hate having to do something so risky (and random) for unlocking stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also that. By default it's close to a 1:5 chance, but with just -7% it's down to a 1:10. Reducing CoD really takes the edge off.

 

Such a book does actually exist, the Book of Gates Mastery, the problem is that it's only sold by a merchant which you cannot access without Gates Methods 11. Which makes the point of unlocking at least that Gates subskill a bit moot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough. Although it also probably had something to do with the fact that I was doing this with a completed character that had a few reductions to chance of detection seeing as how I was doing it in the summer months to save time from starting from scratch.

 

Ooh, that reminds me, there ought to be an adventure that gives you something like the book of deep shadows, only for gates. I hate having to do something so risky (and random) for unlocking stuff.

 

Well, Diavesque gives you two out of four (methods and spells). Plus there's the candies of the gnawing void out there potentially though I realise they're rather unreliable.

 

I dunno I kind of like that the only way to easily learn gates is to enroll in Schohanwicht. ~Consequences~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't test it myself, but in theory you should be able to get Gates Phemes and Spells from the Control Pheme, which in turn is gotten (most easily) from Interrogation 2. Cast that spell at Hearts Hallow (unlocked with Pride of a Rebel Queen 1) to also unlock Methods at the same time, which leaves only the Theory.

 

No easy place to get Theory that I know of, but hey, 3/4 at a CoD 1% location is better than all four separately at 17% CoD, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of my characters probably got extreme chance of detection decreases. They could probably waltz throughthat Place to their hearts content.

 

I'm sure there is a lot of interesting stuff in there, as long as you're mindful of what you pickup. Some of it could surely have interestign uses and be made "safe" or at least very useful with some more research.

Cures for serious disseases with no known cures, isn't something that should be hidden in forbidden archives. Just Think of all the other stuff that some anoying people decided to put away in there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm convinced that this may actually be the case now. I always get a joy out of getting a more refined view of the world the characters live in. I expect that some of us may eventually know more about the world than some of the team someday.

 

Though oddly I expect more things like Willy Wonka's failed recipes in the forbidden archives than almost finished miracle cures.

 

It would be funny to see some overlapping of the two, though, ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm convinced that this may actually be the case now. I always get a joy out of getting a more refined view of the world the characters live in. I expect that some of us may eventually know more about the world than some of the team someday.

 

Though oddly I expect more things like Willy Wonka's failed recipes in the forbidden archives than almost finished miracle cures.

 

It would be funny to see some overlapping of the two, though, ;)

I ran into Aaran Ledale in there, he seemed to be quite at home in there ready to provide directions to Mastery, Gates or forbidden curses and what not. He seems like the right person to aid you in your quest for forbidden stuff in there.

 

And, yeah, I can immagine Asmita would be very interested in the forbidden cooking recipes section and Willy Wonka failed recipes :D With her random appearances and treates getting potentialy deadlier each time she randomly shows up with a delectible looking treat :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, as ethical arguments were alrady brought up here, let me add political argument to the issue of proscribed magic.

 

Some say that Mastery is bad because "that kid can thoroughly dominate me with it". Well, that same kid can thoroughly murder you with simple dagger, and I do not see you proscribing daggers. Why, I wonder. And still the same kid can make you do what he wants with simple astrology(for information on your personal flaws)+glamour(for exploiting your personal flaws) combo.

 

Same with Gates. "That kid can summon awful moster to fight us"? Well, that same kid can revise some golems (or just animate some furniture) to bring you around the same amount of pain.

 

So by itself ethical arguments are nonsense here. They cannot be the actual reason for proscribing those Pillars.

 

What are actual reasons then? - Simple. It is (as usual) power struggle within human society. Have you noticed how much power just a single talented enough wizard can wield? Yet human realms of this world are still not magocracies. So it naturally creates friction between the ones with real power - magic-users - and the ones with symbolical power - "representatives" of general population (bureaucrats, local nobles, whatever).

 

Therefore this proscription had one goal: to smack magic-users and show them their place in hierarchy of power within human society. It is literally saying "screw you, magic-users, and all your power and knowledge, we are in charge here and we will decide what you can and cannot do, and you can do nothing about it."

 

Why Mastery and Gates then? Because they were the easiest to turn into scare for crowds and cover this powerplay with some semblance of "wiil of the people".

 

What should aspiring prohibited wizard do in such circumstances? Well, pretty much the same thing Orso Orsi himself do: ignore woes of ignorant and do your own thing but be smart enough to not get caught. Political winds come and go, but vast and solid knowledge can support you for a lifetime - several, if you are talented ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to think that there are genuine safety issues with Gates, but as far as Mastery is concerned, Well, who knows. Overuse of Mastery can in fact be dangerous to the caster as well, based on the description of many of it's spells. both were banned by mages, so the if what you say is true, then it's a mage/mage issue, and not a mage/non-mage issue.

 

Prudence once called the ban on Gates a scam, that it was a power club who held on to it and it helped it to be kept out of the hands of the lesser wizards.

 

Personally, that's just Prudence being Prudence.

 

We just don't know what the true reasons for it being banned are. Definitely there is a lot of fear involved when mentioning both magics, and they are certainly remnants of times not-so-well loved. They player character at the circle of broken stones points out in thought, that most of their encounters with Gates has not been the kind of experiences to seem that the fear is justified. I eagerly await to see the darkest parts of those magics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Dangers of overuse" and "safety issues" are reasons to institute safety standarts and protocols - not proscribing anything. And again: all magic (and many non-magic things as well) have safety issues and dangerous if overused.

 

 

both were banned by mages, so the if what you say is true, then it's a mage/mage issue, and not a mage/non-mage issue.

 

Good point. As the matter of fact, who was the creator of proscription and who authorized it?

Anyway, mages that supported the proscription may have been pawns of non-mages or, indeed, power club that hoped to hog all power to itself.

 

 


 

 

Prudence once called the ban on Gates a scam, that it was a power club who held on to it and it helped it to be kept out of the hands of the lesser wizards.

 

Personally, that's just Prudence being Prudence.

 

Well it is certainly the case of "Prudence being Prudence", but that does not neccessarily means that it is incorrect ;)

 

We just don't know what the true reasons for it being banned are.

 

True, but that just means that we are free to speculate until we will hear the Word of God loud and clear :) And I find it much more amusing to think in terms of struggle rather than "holier-than-thou" ethical justifications, which, really, cannot survive any contact with logic.

 

I eagerly await to see the darkest parts of those magics.

 

And I, for one, await to see the darkest parts of all magics. It is not fair that Gates and Mastery simply take all the cake - any Pillar can be shown as sinister, malicious and downright vile. But at the end it is all in the hands of the mage and the eyes of the observer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, as ethical arguments were alrady brought up here, let me add political argument to the issue of proscribed magic.

 

So by itself ethical arguments are nonsense here. They cannot be the actual reason for proscribing those Pillars.

 

 

Hmm... I don't get it. Ethics and Politics are often if not always tied together (afterall Politics and Order have affinity right?) so I don't see how the ban being a political issue is a problem.

 

Don't confuse Morale and Ethics. ;)

 

But I agree that it is a political issue (and a ethical one too) altough I disagree strongly with your dagger argument.

 

You see even in the real world there are some weapon considered more dangerous by people (altough that may and definetly is subjective so is Ethics though) that are indeed completly illegal.

Simple exemple: Bomb.

 

Yes it is completly illegal to build or hold a bomb even in the Liberal US and not necessarily a big bomb either. As long as it is one it is illegal and you would be in big trouble if caught.

My own ethical argument was exactly about this what people perceive rightly or not as too dangerous to be "held" or in this case "held in the head" aka known ;).

 

So the only question remaining is to know if Gates can be considered a "bomb" where the other pillars would be "daggers" as you said.

 

I believe that it is yes. Because of my suspision of Gates being responsible of the Monteon cataclysm but also because we know that Gates has been responsible for deadly and incurable plague and extra-planar invasion.

So it is at the same time a nuclear weapon, a deadly biochemical weapon and tool to raise horde of soldier. Highly Dangerous if you ask me. :)

 

Is it enough to be banned ? Maybe not but then you also have that dear Chaos Factor which not only makes Gates Dangerous but also uncontrablle and thus Unsafe.

 

Dangerous and Unsafe ? Might be a good idea to proscribe it ? Or maybe not. ;)

 

Mastery no need to argue about it. I am pretty sure the whole pillar is a violation of the first amendment. Well as long as you consider freedom of thought important for freedom of speech.

A fascinating debate now that I think about it. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were no names attached to the bans of the magic. (At least in Y1... And perhaps if there were, it would explain some things...)

 

But if I recall correctly, the legate said that it would take the imperial temple/council to decide on such things. And that should any other group decide otherwise it would likely mean a war. Also that there have been talks in Pievre about unbanning them.

 

Since Gates once had the ability to be used without the chaos factor, I am inclined to believe that as it stand today, the magic is indeed too dangerous for regular use. That's one of the things I wish to solve, whether or not I get to help unban Gates.

 

As for Mastery, I don't think a spell specifically removes the ability to think or speak unless it is specifically designed into the spell, so then again you have that point where we are bashing the whole for the deeds of the few, and I don't think that that is proper at all.

 

Given that I think most Masters of the now-proscribed arts likely did not give up their skills, it can be argued that all the bans really did do is put the knowledge into the hands of a few, regardless of whether there was a conspiracy to do so or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were no names attached to the bans of the magic. (At least in Y1... And perhaps if there were, it would explain some things...)

 

But if I recall correctly, the legate said that it would take the imperial temple/council to decide on such things. And that should any other group decide otherwise it would likely mean a war. Also that there have been talks in Pievre about unbanning them.

 

Since Gates once had the ability to be used without the chaos factor, I am inclined to believe that as it stand today, the magic is indeed too dangerous for regular use. That's one of the things I wish to solve, whether or not I get to help unban Gates.

 

As for Mastery, I don't think a spell specifically removes the ability to think or speak unless it is specifically designed into the spell, so then again you have that point where we are bashing the whole for the deeds of the few, and I don't think that that is proper at all.

 

Given that I think most Masters of the now-proscribed arts likely did not give up their skills, it can be argued that all the bans really did do is put the knowledge into the hands of a few, regardless of whether there was a conspiracy to do so or not.

The Legate did say there are powerful Gates and Master wizards out there that the law doesn't bother. Very powerful wizards.

 

/shrug

 

I wonder what it takes to get on that list, licence, or Power enough to topple the empire if you're bothered, or being born Before the ban?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The powerful mages that are still have full knowledge of Gate and Mastery are mostly from before the last ban and so already very old and powerful even without gate and mastery magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The powerful mages that are still have full knowledge of Gate and Mastery are mostly from before the last ban and so already very old and powerful even without gate and mastery magic.

I don't suppose it would be possible to get an apprenticeship with one.. Maybe they need an assistant every now and then due to their advanced age.

 

They might even have some of their old schoolbooks and other research laying around. If the authorities don't want to bother them, then their home and personal Collection might not have been purged. Or maybe you coudl find an abandoned home of one such person that's just recently passed away(probably don't happen that often though)..... Before people decide to puge the contents or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we have the right background we already be a apprentice with Eunetica before we go to that school. There is a other Gate mage we can encounter in year 1 and to my knowledge also in year 2 but I doubt this mage will take a apprentice that is currently study at Academagia.

For Mastery we probably will see a new background in DLC 17.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

You see even in the real world there are some weapon considered more dangerous by people (altough that may and definetly is subjective so is Ethics though) that are indeed completly illegal.

Simple exemple: Bomb.

 

Yes it is completly illegal to build or hold a bomb even in the Liberal US and not necessarily a big bomb either. As long as it is one it is illegal and you would be in big trouble if caught.

 

Your example is good, but it actually furthers my point ;)

 

"it is completly illegal to build or hold a bomb even in the Liberal US" - false. Demolition works, mining, fireworks and (of course!) military usage are etirely legal applications of explosive devices (also known as "bombs"). As you see, all you need is proper licence. And that is how issues of handling dangerous technologies (or magics for this point) should be resolved properly - through safety protocols, not proscription.

 

Also I somehow think that you do not fully comprehend the extent of the thing called "Proscription". With bombs it would not be simple confiscation of homemade explosives. It would be dimantling of the whole industry of production of explosives, burning all chemistry textbooks that mention the process of, say, nitroglycerine synthesis, and branding all organic chemists as a potential threat to society.

 

And there are many other things like that: electricity, automobiles, chemical plants etc. That "something is dangerous and can be used maliciously" is not an argument to Proscribe it.

 

My own ethical argument was exactly about this what people perceive rightly or not as too dangerous to be "held" or in this case "held in the head" aka known

 

Yet somehow knowledge about how to create big shining balls of ever-burning flames of purgatory (a.k.a. Incantation) goes entirely under the radar B) How so?

 

my suspision of Gates being responsible of the Monteon cataclysm

 

Suspicions cannot be used as arguments.

 

 

So it is at the same time a nuclear weapon, a deadly biochemical weapon and tool to raise horde of soldier.

 

 

 

You are mixing up basic knowledge and particular applications. It would be more accurate to say that Gates are essentially nuclear physics, trans-dimensional physics and synthetical biology.

So, "nuclear weapon, a deadly biochemical weapon and tool to raise horde of soldier"?

Yes, but also nuclear power, radiotherapy, radiodiagnostics, revolutionary means of transportation (and transmission of data, for that matter), new cures and ways to augment human beings.

What's not to like?

 

Mastery no need to argue about it. I am pretty sure the whole pillar is a violation of the first amendment. Well as long as you consider freedom of thought important for freedom of speech.

Firstly (correct me if I am wrong), there are no "first amendment" in the world of Academagia.

Secondly, as it was mentioned, Mastery spells do not rob you of ability to think.

Thirdly (and I think this is more interesting), if mental processes can be controlled and altered by magic - can they be deemed free at all? It something can be controlled - it means that this something abides by some set of laws. And if something is subject to unescapable laws - it cannot be considered free in the first place.

 

 

There were no names attached to the bans of the magic. (At least in Y1... And perhaps if there were, it would explain some things...)

 

Well, too bad. I think that those guys just asking for big hefty swarm of flame spheres in their general direction.

 

But if I recall correctly, the legate said that it would take the imperial temple/council to decide on such things. And that should any other group decide otherwise it would likely mean a war. Also that there have been talks in Pievre about unbanning them.

 

Which again show that it is a political issue.

 

Since Gates once had the ability to be used without the chaos factor, I am inclined to believe that as it stand today, the magic is indeed too dangerous for regular use. That's one of the things I wish to solve, whether or not I get to help unban Gates.

 

Sure. And the longer it remains Proscribed and under-researched - the longer it remains too dangerous for regular use. Proscription does not solve this problem at all <_<

 

Given that I think most Masters of the now-proscribed arts likely did not give up their skills, it can be argued that all the bans really did do is put the knowledge into the hands of a few, regardless of whether there was a conspiracy to do so or not.

 

Exactly. Strong live by their own laws. Weak live as they have to. So in ethical dimension I would say that you have every right to learn and use everything you are capable to learn and use. Common law is for commoners, criminal law is for criminals :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I definately think it's absurt to put a ban and especialy a deathpenalty on having certain knowledge in your head. On the otherhand, doing bad things with it, is another thing completely. Hurting people and endangering people could certainly be a crime, rarely deathpenaly unless you're actualy murdering people, and only in a few countries/states.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good news: I found a way to get the Book of Gates Mastery without getting a Gates subskill to 11.

 

Bad News: That way involves yoinking it from the Schohanwicht School: The Obranabú Library location. Which you cannot get access to without either having been accepted into Schohanwicht (meaning you have access to Schohanwicht) or having discovered the location the hard way through either Exploration (Exploration Difficulty in latest patch: 999) or through Beatrix von Wetgen's Clique ability.

 

As they say, one step forwards, two steps back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting.. Kinda stupid that it took so long to figure THAT one out. (DUH!)

 

I thought that only the Biography of Mother Ambina (or however you spell the name, I know it's got that funny character in it) was in there. Turns out I was confusing that with the Mirapos Library.

 

Actually, I would love to do some touring of more large locations that are quite hard to find normally. You can do a tour of the Venalicium and also of the Spavia theatre if you know one of their locations, but sadly not Schohanwicht.

 

I guess I can kind of understand that, to an extent. I doubt a bunch of mages practicing an illegal art want you snooping around their little slice of paradise, but really, for someone like me who doesn't want to join their school, yet wants to remain on friendly terms with them, I would think that after proving to them that you are willing to cast Gates spells and are not a total amateur, that they might be nice enough to let you read the books in their library (although not take) without having to join their school altogether. Particularly if you do them a favor or two for the privilege.

 

If they are truly interested in passing on the art of Gates to the next generation, They shouldn't have much problem with that. (Casting unsupervised Gates spells on their grounds as a nonstudent should still be a no-no, as that involves a lot of risk that they shouldn't have to put up with)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Incidentally, I also found the "overhear professors talking about Gates enough to be informed of the subskills" RE in the mod tools: RE Awesome Community 22. Requires knowing The Instructors' Lounge location and not being Informed of Theory of Gates. Sadly actual talking amongst the professors isn't included, which is a great shame...

 

PS, Legate: That event doesn't have appear to have success or failure text assigned to Investigation 2, and possibly no Drawbacks either (hard to tell without (con)text). Of course I'm looking it up in the DLC 15 mod base, but still, that's the option which unlocks the ability to argue in favor of Gates, right in front of most of the faculty! Which increases your relationship with Professor Sido in addition to Informing you of all Gates subskills! That must be worthy of double-checking :).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Curious that in that event Briardi is the one taking the hardline stance against Gates when she appears to be friends with Euneycia and potentially even asks her to summon something for her in the Durand rubies adventure if you fail a roll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe the Gressel crew should have some history skills and possibly study levels(even if it isn't the academagia, but perhaps based on the study used by the old college of Mastery at the Academagia) Given the similarities and given that Sync used to be a form of mastery I would assume it uses some of the oldmastery Occupation language and academic language to communicate aspects of the art.

 

Which seems to be a good starting Point to help you understand the art better.

 

History skills:

History of Syncronisity

History of Mastery

 

That should be both educational for a student of the arts and help put things in a perspective. people will jsut have to hammer out the details...

Just a thought :) The biggest danger in magic is magic applied with a lack of understanding. Especialy in an art that borders on brain surgery...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...