Jump to content
Black Chicken Studios Forums
reltats

The business model - Taking cues and learning lessions from other F2Ps

Recommended Posts

Didn't mean to post yet, moving to google docs to type so as to avoid posting early again. Will make a post when its done. If a mod wants to delete this page that's fine

 

 

I Was attempting to check the character limits, and did not intend to post. the thread may not be until tomorrow, Wednesday, or later as I am collecting as much data as possible to write up a proper document

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason I help kickstart VB because a company was trying to making a KanColle game that other people can enjoy without the hassle of trying to make an account for KanColle. But sadly I am not very well verse in business practices as my economics class won't start until the new school year. So I will adopt a wait and see approach to read and judge what BCS will do and how other community will react. But so far VB has caught my interest and I will gladly help BCS in anyway possible so it can grow into a fine community.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the limited experience I have and the the immense amount of time I spent playing mobile games instead of studying I guess the best thing I can do is throw out my two cents when this thread officially kicks off. But I see I have another Panzer Waltz player here!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the limited experience I have and the the immense amount of time I spent playing mobile games instead of studying I guess the best thing I can do is throw out my two cents when this thread officially kicks off. But I see I have another Panzer Waltz player here!

I don't play the game, I just the artwork.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But I see I have another Panzer Waltz player here!

Oh, there are a few of us here. Smugtiger is best tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd go with mimicing KanColle with its expansions. Yes, it's irritating, yet when you finally get the funds going you can afford all those fleet expansion, dock expansions, among others. However, you should also allow the players to be able to earn similar in the game (no limits) of gaining resources/costumes/etc, just convenience. I would also go out of my way to by selective Belle skins for my favourite Belles. Even ones which would make 'horrible' Belles more enjoyable/appealing to myself. Whatever your team feels like doing.

 

Example: If Nera gained an Italian flag type WW2 outfit celebrating Italy's historical event, or some Canadian Belle (or Belles) celebrating their modern Canadian flag addition along with their 1945 version. Either that, or wishing each Belle a happy birthday by leaving it all on the store with no expiration dates, or anything.

 

Ya, I backed Victory Belles (after a few tantrums seeing it as a clone; Path already taken) , I supported it when I saw how neat & detailed it would be instead. I changed my mind after being shown how different and sweet it would be. It wasn't HMCS Saguenay (it's a part of it) because I saw it trying to improve the things KanColle failed on. Basically giving you manual selected nodes to venture to, as well as having beautiful Belles in the North American standards. It even now competes well with the Anime KnColle that I can even give it actual genuine pride & respect. It wants to go all out, as well as being highly accessible. I'm glad people backed it that we'll now see it on PC/Tablet, ios, & Android.

 

I do quite enjoy how Euro Truck Sim 2 does its DLCs with them being optional. It's your choice if you want the DLCs or paintjobs, or not.Same with KanColle with the fleet & drydock. You shouldn't be forced into a wall to then be forced to pay. I should be able to do sorties, unhindered, until I run out of resources in a 2 hrs time (KanColle average run time), or stockpile long enough to be able to take part in events. Basically put in enough time that you can use that invested by bringing it out again. Anything higher is just bonus, and then you can charge for convenience. I see no stamina or anything so doing battles is instead taken up with how long something takes on the battlefield. Romance is the only thing taking stamina.

 

Playing Flower Knights Girl, or any game on Nutaku.net has me raging because I'm only allowed to play for 10 minutes, then told to pay or screw off. I allowed Flower Knight Girl to slide because it won me over, yet it's now slipping away with how stupid it is by just giving you slightly enough medals, just not the exact amopunt to keep going constantly that you have to pay for more 'Flower gems' to play, even when you have the time to invest in it. It has a great concept, yet hindered by needing money. Hard to say & confirm on my POV, just that resources, Fleet limit, costumes, & certain event related things should be paid for in convenience. KanColle is lenient, yet its doing what it can to support itself, at a cost. I guess it won't be equal, but if VB keeps growing you could tap into the same style of market & ease for VB. It's even far easier for westerners to tap into, plus shown to be more complex & detailed than KanColle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that might be doable almost immediately might be to peek at something like Amazon's affiliate program. Along with each Belle, provide links to relevant history books or naval material on Amazon (or some such.)

 

Not everyone would already know all the history behind each of the Belle's namesakes, so it might be interesting for those who were curious to learn more. So BCS could use the research they have already done to recommend books, including texts such as Mahan's book.

 

It would be mostly just pocket change, but it might be relatively easy to do (since BCS has already done a lot of research) and also educational.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Panzer Waltz's business model would be a good reference point. The players never feel forced to buy anything(except if they want to rush through things) and premium currency can be gained through in-game means(alhough at a pretty slow rate). There's not too much reliance in RNG in getting the characters.

 

KanColle's way of doing things is also pretty fair although personally I'm not a fan of limited ship slot but I understand that server space costs money.

 

As for cosmetic stuff on the store, go crazy with it I don't mind cosmetic stuff. Although hopefully costumes aren't $10/piece but that's just me being poor af.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There different Free To Play games that give bonus for player that pay a monthly subscription. Just to name a few methodes:

- Age of Wullin/Wushu have a skill system where you need certain time to improve a skill but for people with subscription also the offline time count while people without only improve during the time they stay online. (This could used for any thing that need long real time to finished like repair after damaged)

- The Elder Scroll Online give all DLC for "free" / The Lord of the Rings online give access to certain zones as bonus while people without subscription have to work hard to unlock them or have to pay for the DLC (This could be used for any questline / area where the people with subscription get free access during the time they pay while other can buy the unlock at the store or work very hard ingame to get it for free)

- The Elder Scroll Online also give as bonus increased EXP, Gold and Research time for the people with subscription (very basic give X% bonus to different things)

- Star Treck Online gave (give?) out free ship when you reached certain level in you career. (For VB this could mean free Belle or resources at certain point of the questline but personal I don't think its a good idea as once you past that point you permanent have this bonus)

- More slot for your Character / Ship /Resources / Inventory etc. this is given in different games.

- Free Cash Shop Currency also given in different games as bonus for subscription

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add to what people have said above, I would make the following points:

 

  • There should be no items obtainable in a shop that cannot otherwise be obtained through reasonable gameplay (in terms of time etc) where it impacts balance and gameplay. Preferably, no 'game play items' can be obtained via money (most games these days are alright in this aspect)
  • Quality of life improvements are alright (e.g. the ship expansions it seems from KanColle (Never played that game though).
  • Introducing alternate skins for the various ships would be great (perhaps from different artists as well?) (See Soccer Spirits for an example). You could go one step further and introduce unique voiced dialogue (e.g. special events - Halloween, Christmas, Valentines day etc - perhaps even nationality specific ones, or depending on how combat sequences are handled - unique combat lines they say.
  • Other cosmetic stuff would be nice, exclusive backgrounds, themes, UI etc.
  • In terms of Gacha (aka opening boxes to get a random chance for items): I would generally try refrain from these. They seem to be a major component in a lot of free to play 'CCG' or just collecting characters in general but they really leave a bad taste in my mouth due to it being essentially a gamble.

If a Gacha related system does get implemented, I would strongly suggest the following:

  1. Preferably make any gacha system in game and not obtainable with real money (aka any gacha system utilises currency that is obtainable only through gameplay - therefore people don't get an advantage for buying more)
  2. being 100% forthright about the relevant rates (which you would think was obvious but you would be suprised what some people try get away with)
  3. Implement a 'safety net' - to ensure no-one is 'too' unlucky - e.g. for every ## box opened (or whatever the gacha item may be) you get a guaranteed something of a certain quality etc

Otherwise, another consideration is that subscription mode which would need to consider the above points as well.

And fInally - please no ads suggesting we buy something after every battle, or every screen change etc. These really annoy me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I have no problem with premium accounts I hope the developers can balance the game without forcing people to pay for premium. It's a very common mistake done by a lot of mobile games/games with premium where non-paying players are forced to have a much inferior experience because they don't want to pay for premium.

 

Of course those who pay should get something for what they pay but those who doesn't pay premium should be able to play normally and can pay for other stuff like cosmetic items.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things:

 

First, very interesting reading. :)

 

EngineerSam - That's a brilliant idea, no matter whether or not it's a revenue stream!

 

Schwarzbart & XKrieg - I suspect that if we were to do a subscription model, it would be boosts, not carrying any locked content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to wonder if ingame Amazon links can be done without being obnoxious. There's also the issue of language, since I assume that neither all the reference material or all the people playing the game will be (fluent) in English. Nor will I assume that Amazon can/will ship to every part of the world that might end up playing VB (although I suppose for digital goods that's less of an issue).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Schwarzbart & XKrieg - I suspect that if we were to do a subscription model, it would be boosts, not carrying any locked content.

 

I understand that but sometimes developers forget to balance resource requirement/difficulty for non-paying customers and make the game feel normal to those who pay but feel like torture to those who doesn't pay premium. Hopefully BCS can avoid that :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the same time, the perks for paying need to be meaningful or there will be no incentive for people to start opening their wallets and funding the game's growth and improvement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things:

 

First, very interesting reading. :)

 

EngineerSam - That's a brilliant idea, no matter whether or not it's a revenue stream!

 

Schwarzbart & XKrieg - I suspect that if we were to do a subscription model, it would be boosts, not carrying any locked content.

I just tried to provide you with info how other have done it to give you some ideas as some things have to implemented already early that they work for both free to play and subscription.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep the ideas coming. Obviously, there will always be a balance in revenue stream, but we play mobile games too. Belles shouldn't punish you for loving the game. ;)

 

XKrieg;

 

That's a tough nut to crack, because rpgs of this type aren't games you play over a few weeks- but a few years! So, boosts, almost in any form, will be really visible. We'll have to see how they want to implement it, but there'll be time to discuss more deeply in the beta, I'd expect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing to consider is that all Kickstarter pledgers combined will start with a grand total of 310×6+323×25+89×50+70×75+43×100+(128+27+54+4+11+1+3+13+14+1+1)×150=$62485 worth of ingame currency ready to spend from day 1. So money either goes fast, which will likely end up feeling like a rip-off or too much like P2W if it is a strong effect, or money goes slowly, which means the Team isn't going to get much if anything from the micros until after the initial war chests have been spend.

 

To simplify it, Legate (oh hi there :blink:, BTW), what directions are the Team leaning towards in terms of micros? Weak to strong effects, cheap to expensive micros, short to long durations?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh yes, I do understand. I wouldn't want to just get every ship in a matter of days/weeks either.

 

An example would be something like Avengers Academy, which I'm currently playing. If you don't pay, you literally have to schedule your day around the game or you won't be able to get the event characters in time before the event ends. This is what I hope BCS can avoid. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Metis;

 

I think it's fair to say that the funds already in game won't likely cause inflation, unless the number of players == Kickstarter Backers. That's not very probable, fortunately.

 

(Hey!) I don't know the answer yet, except on the kinds of things they are considering charging for: timers, Resources, themes, costumizations, and so on. Those sound to *me* like they encompass weak & strong, cheap & expensive and short & long. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

XKrieg;

 

ME TOO! I love that game for the characters...and hate that game for the micros. I'm not going to tell you how much I've spent. :)

 

I personally liked their gambling box, by the way, and mentioned that concept to the Team. It was a way to do it that I'd never seen before, and had built in safeguards, which I thought was...responsible. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

XKrieg;

 

ME TOO! I love that game for the characters...and hate that game for the micros. I'm not going to tell you how much I've spent. :)

 

I personally liked their gambling box, by the way, and mentioned that concept to the Team. It was a way to do it that I'd never seen before, and had built in safeguards, which I thought was...responsible. ;)

 

how is the lootbox there? I despise lootboxes so I didn't read up on it :P I feel that if I want something I should be able to just buy it, not gamble for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Metis;

 

I think it's fair to say that the funds already in game won't likely cause inflation, unless the number of players == Kickstarter Backers. That's not very probable, fortunately.

 

(Hey!) I don't know the answer yet, except on the kinds of things they are considering charging for: timers, Resources, themes, costumizations, and so on. Those sound to *me* like they encompass weak & strong, cheap & expensive and short & long. :)

I suppose not, but still, $62000 worth of ingame currency isn't going to fly by unnoticed. And if it is, well, I'd be concerned about how quickly money can be spend.

 

Themes and customizations I suppose don't really fall into those categories, nor would things like extra base space (which is certain to be it's own thing based on server costs anyway), but in terms of timers and resources, I'm curious if the Team...well, at this stage, probably more like if they are leaning towards having, say, timers that one can buy themselves past right away individually, or if one can buy a speed-up for all timers (or all of a certain type, etc.) that'll last some arbitrary amount of time. At least to me the former would definitely smell like P2W, the latter less so. Of course the latter might not sell as well, either.

 

how is the lootbox there? I despise lootboxes so I didn't read up on it :P I feel that if I want something I should be able to just buy it, not gamble for it.

I would likewise like to mention that gating progress or powerful goodies behind an RNG that's pretty clearly rigged is a fantastic way to stop actual gameplay dead in it's tracks. Of course on the flipside RNG is a great way to make items more rare, and in turn, expensive.

 

I think it'd be best if gambling couldn't get you "unique" items at all, just something from a random grab bag of basic (though useful) goodies, or if there's a trading post of sorts where you can trade in X numbers of items you don't want for an item you do want. It keeps things rare (and expensive), but even if progress is slow it's always clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

XKrieg - The gamble box had 10 items in it, and every time you opened it, the item you received was removed from the list. So, the maximum number of times you'd have to open is 10, and very likely less. I got that Ant Man costume. :)

 

/nerd off

 

Metis - I think it's timers you can buy off. I guess I don't feel like that's P2W, since timers are related to construction, research and travel- these seem like things you can equally validly wait for or purchase, and the end state is the same for everyone. But I play a lot of mobile games myself, so it seems kind of common to me.

 

I like the 'trading post' idea!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be up front that I am a very neophyte gamer these days. My glory days were in the 1980's - games like the *original* Castle Wolfenstein on an Apple IIe. I fell out of gaming about when SId Meier's original Civ (on a 286 machine!) kept me up until 4am every night and my grad school grades threatened to slide precipitously.

 

It strikes innocent me that the issues being described would be more an issue with an MMO? If in my game I advance things with cash in order to compensate for the fact my personal life often leaves me previous little time to game, how does that hurt anyone else? We all play on our own little instance, right?

 

I'm open (actually eager!) to be educated on this topic. But honestly, if there is anything that I can pay to take tedium out of the gaming elements and keep the story (what mostly interests me) going, I'll pay. Keep in mind, not all of us are gamers, per se. There will be some like me who come to this game from the perspective of a visual novel with great writing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...