The Allies Strike Back

[Schwarzbart]

Which is amusing, but like submarine carriers, is by no means practical.

Given that submarine of WW2 had to stay on the surface most of the time (i.e. to spot other ships) and only submerged to fight or escape I think submarine carries are no bad idea i.e. to have a extended scout range.

[Fifrein]

But it increases weight and size and decreases hydrodynamics through a larger (and in surcouf's case, poorly- shaped due to large guns in the front) frame. In addition, the extra ammunition for the larger guns and avgas for the planes needs storage as well, decreasing the already minimal useable room inside the sub and increases risk of the more volatile substances detonating and sinking the vehicle.

 

Finally, the sub is larger and louder and therefore easier to detect. Firing the guns and launching/recovering aircraft requires extended time on the surface (which when near a target is absolutely not the place to be). All of this increases the risk of an ASW ship discovering and sinking the vehicle.

 

Submarines were best used by the Germans in their role as commerce raiders and by the Americans as scouts and hunters of targets of opportunity, all of which was the product of small, difficult to detect, relatively maneuverable vehicles with a focus on stealth and torpedo armament. The guns were secondary as they were rarely used (except for finishing damaged targets that couldn't return fire or AA if they had no other choice), and the aircraft are great for scouting but for the reasons above defeat the purpose of a submarine at the time.

[Schwarzbart]

That's true but a submarine at last have the chance to escape to fight a other day once a to big enemy force or bomber are on the way to you.

Also a submarine carrier have a better chance to make a stealthy preventive strike compared to a normal carrier.

To make it short a normal carrier have to fight its way out in situations where the submarine carrier could escape submerged. So the normal carrier need more escort ships.

[Fifrein]

But it would have to do so without its planes. Recovery takes time and effort on the surface, which again leaves the sub vulnerable. Also of note is that a submarine carrier can still only carry an air wing about 20x smaller than a fleet carrier, and all planes must be floatplanes, leaving the power of any given "stealth strike" well below the minimum to be cost effective, or even damaging to a worthy target.

[Schwarzbart]

First you don't need to recover the aircraft at the same location you started them and second have a look at the Japanesse B1 Type in the Wiki

 

Edit: In general if you can reach your goal from a land based airport its always more efficient then to send out a ship with airplane on board. For the war in Europa the distances where simply to short to use carrier.

But to fight a unknown sea-based army where you know nothing about the capabilities submarines with aircraft would be my first line of scouts and if necessary the aircraft was considered lost in action if the pickup would be to problematic.

[Fifrein]

First you don't need to recover the aircraft at the same location you started them and second have a look at the Japanesse B1 Type in the Wiki

 

Edit: In general if you can reach your goal from a land based airport its always more efficient then to send out a ship with airplane on board. For the war in Europa the distances where simply to short to use carrier.

But to fight a unknown sea-based army where you know nothing about the capabilities submarines with aircraft would be my first line of scouts and if necessary the aircraft was considered lost in action if the pickup would be to problematic.

And in that same wiki article: "sustained air operations largely negate the advantage of being submersible, and the size limitations preclude sizable sustained aerial operations.^[6] Furthermore, any submarine large enough to be useful would be vulnerable to detection and counterattack. Combined with the cost for such a specialized vessel, it is unlikely that any navy would consider their construction worthwhile."

 

In addition, you will note that the B1's success came not from their ability to launch aircraft, but their stealth and torpedo armament. In other words, one of the most successful variants of carrier submarine was primarily successful as a submarine, and not due to the carrier aspect.

[Wellington99]

I'm not all that knowledgeable about subs so forgive me if I don't join the discussion

 

I know that there's the vestiges system for getting ships, and I was wondering if it is easier for say a British player to get American ships due to Lend Lease, if that factors in any

[Legate of Mineta]

W99;

 

It is slightly easier, yes. But it's really about your Diplomatic Channels. You start with your Nation, and have to develop things the way you'd like to connect. So, if you want American Belles, you'll want to foster your Relationship with the States.

 

Bear in mind there are other ways to acquire Vestures, too, but you obviously want access to all the channels if you want to get one quickly.

[Wellington99]

W99;

 

It is slightly easier, yes. But it's really about your Diplomatic Channels. You start with your Nation, and have to develop things the way you'd like to connect. So, if you want American Belles, you'll want to foster your Relationship with the States.

 

Bear in mind there are other ways to acquire Vestures, too, but you obviously want access to all the channels if you want to get one quickly.

Hmm ok. And obviously some channels are easier to access than others (US vs Italy or Germany)

[Legate of Mineta]

Yep!

[Wellington99]

Well time to work up my Anglo-Germanic relations

[RockyArby]

Well time to work up my Anglo-Germanic relations

"Good show bombing london, my old Jerry friend! Mind if I borrow Bismark for a while?"

[Wellington99]

"Good show bombing london, my old Jerry friend! Mind if I borrow Bismark for a while?"

*Z18 because bulkheads

[Cuirassé_Richelieu]

is there actually any french captains here?

 

Yes.

[RockyArby]

Well then, Wecome to the Allies' thread.

[Wellington99]

 

Yes.

*puffs up chest*

[Cuirassé_Richelieu]

 

 

*sigh* France

 

 

Well time to work up my Anglo-Germanic relations

 

Hmm.. I did not expect to see a supporter of Edward VIII. Quite suspicious... Is there any real officer of the Royal Navy and servant of His Majesty, King Georges VI here ?

 

As for the Surcouf, I will join Fifrein, it was impractical and its gimmick defeated the purpose of stealth. Imagine it trying to attack a military target with guns, revealing its position loudly and flashily while being a fat target and unable to submerge fast enough to avoid retaliation. On top of that its electrical engine was a capricious beast. One might as well just stick to torpedoes for military targets and smaller cannons mounted on top of the hull for unarmed merchant ships.

[Wellington99]

 

Hmm.. I did not expect to see a supporter of Edward VIII. Quite suspicious... Is there any real officer of the Royal Navy and servant of His Majesty, King Georges VI here ?

 

As for the Surcouf, I will join Fifrein, it was impractical and its gimmick defeated the purpose of stealth. Imagine it trying to attack a military target with guns, revealing its position loudly and flashily while being a fat target and unable to submerge fast enough to avoid retaliation. On top of that its electrical engine was a capricious beast. One might as well just stick to torpedoes for military targets and smaller cannons mounted on top of the hull for unarmed merchant ships.

Nah, I just have a thing where I love the idea of the combination of British and Prussian ideologies in a military. I find George VI to be one of the best kings we've had. And of course Churchill probably the best PM