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Here's a question referring to the extent of knowledge.  I understand that the practice of naming ships after people is not a common one, with the main examples I can think of being German and American destroyers, but what of ships named for living people?  Since a belle has innate knowledge of her namesake, for example, Mahan could probably remember when Alfred began his quintessential works of Naval Literature, how deep does the knowledge extend?  Would Mahan, for example, be able to tell you the answers to questions only Alfred Thayer Mahan would know, such as "What is your deepest regret?"  Would she know the answers to questions that he would have never told anyone, because she innately understands him?  And Consequently, were a ship to be named for a living person, would that ship be able to hypothetically speak for that person in inherent knowledge, even going so far as to learn everything said person does as they learn it.  An example being if the namesake were to become fluent in a new language, would the belle also inherently be able to speak that language with the same fluency, regardless of having studied it independently herself?  I suppose this has gotten rather long-winded and full of hypothetical examples, so I shall leave it here for now.  (If chosen, it will probably have to be boiled down a bit.)

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11 minutes ago, Ninjapacman said:

Here's a question referring to the extent of knowledge.  I understand that the practice of naming ships after people is not a common one, with the main examples I can think of being German and American destroyers, but what of ships named for living people?  Since a belle has innate knowledge of her namesake, for example, Mahan could probably remember when Alfred began his quintessential works of Naval Literature, how deep does the knowledge extend?  Would Mahan, for example, be able to tell you the answers to questions only Alfred Thayer Mahan would know, such as "What is your deepest regret?"  Would she know the answers to questions that he would have never told anyone, because she innately understands him?  And Consequently, were a ship to be named for a living person, would that ship be able to hypothetically speak for that person in inherent knowledge, even going so far as to learn everything said person does as they learn it.  An example being if the namesake were to become fluent in a new language, would the belle also inherently be able to speak that language with the same fluency, regardless of having studied it independently herself?  I suppose this has gotten rather long-winded and full of hypothetical examples, so I shall leave it here for now.  (If chosen, it will probably have to be boiled down a bit.)

Now that is a interesting question I would like to add about how someone like Sullivan be affected 

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16 minutes ago, lazarusdw said:

Now that is a interesting question I would like to add about how someone like Sullivan be affected 

I assume you're referring to USS The Sullivans, who in herself is an entirely isolated case.  As the only ship in history that I can think of named after a specific set of more than one person, she is unique in both her namesake and their circumstances, and likely has several caveats on what a belle would otherwise know about her namesake.  She does however, fall under the classic category of being named in response to said persons' demise, when all five died during or after the sinking of USS Juneau.  I would also like to add that we are strictly talking Pre-September '39, for the purposes of lore, so a ship like USS The Sullivans (Being 1943 commission) would be wholly unknown to whatever presenter we get.

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4 minutes ago, Ninjapacman said:

I assume you're referring to USS The Sullivans, who in herself is an entirely isolated case.  As the only ship in history that I can think of named after a specific set of more than one person, she is unique in both her namesake and their circumstances, and likely has several caveats on what a belle would otherwise know about her namesake.  She does however, fall under the classic category of being named in response to said persons' demise, when all five died during or after the sinking of USS Juneau.  I would also like to add that we are strictly talking Pre-September '39, for the purposes of lore, so a ship like USS The Sullivans (Being 1943 commission) would be wholly unknown to whatever presenter we get.

Makes wonder if she be commissioned if Juneau doesn't sink

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1 minute ago, lazarusdw said:

Makes wonder if she be commissioned if Juneau doesn't sink

She would be, just as Putnam, rather than The Sullivans.

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13 minutes ago, Ninjapacman said:

She would be, just as Putnam, rather than The Sullivans.

it would appear that names have far more power than i first thought. what would happen if a belle had her name changed........... Ninja i have a idea if names are so powerfull could a belles allegiance be changed with a name change perhaps morgana's too. now excuse me i have some old tomes to read though

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1 minute ago, lazarusdw said:

it would appear that names have far more power than i first thought. what would happen if a belle had her name changed........... Ninja i have a idea if names are so powerfull could a belles allegiance be changed with a name change perhaps morgana's too. now excuse me i have some old tomes to read though

That in itself is a topic of mysticism that I have been studying for near since I first learned of magic.  Names are incredibly powerful, and for ships doubly so.  However, a name change is not something to be taken lightly.  It is well known by experienced sailors that any ship who has her name changed without proper ceremony is doomed to fatal luck.  A prime example being USS St. Lo, a Jeep Carrier who was formerly USS Midway, but before her last deployment, the government changed her name in preparation for the new Midway class aircraft carriers.  Shortly afterwards she was in Taffy 3, and in the morning hours of 25th October, 1945, she became the first ship of the war sunk by Kamikaze attack.  There is a way to mitigate that bad luck, via a proper ceremony to Un-name, and a proper Ceremony to Re-name, but most governments don't waste the time or money, not believing in such conspiracies.

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4 minutes ago, Ninjapacman said:

That in itself is a topic of mysticism that I have been studying for near since I first learned of magic.  Names are incredibly powerful, and for ships doubly so.  However, a name change is not something to be taken lightly.  It is well known by experienced sailors that any ship who has her name changed without proper ceremony is doomed to fatal luck.  A prime example being USS St. Lo, a Jeep Carrier who was formerly USS Midway, but before her last deployment, the government changed her name in preparation for the new Midway class aircraft carriers.  Shortly afterwards she was in Taffy 3, and in the morning hours of 25th October, 1945, she became the first ship of the war sunk by Kamikaze attack.  There is a way to mitigate that bad luck, via a proper ceremony to Un-name, and a proper Ceremony to Re-name, but most governments don't waste the time or money, not believing in such conspiracies.

so what your saying is it's not impossible......... ok i've done some reading and i now know how to change a ships name. i have the champagne and a new name all we need now is a morgana to test and a bull for posidion

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For the next update (which might be a Christmas update), could you also send a small box of Belfast's favorite sweets with the following question:

What would you want for Christmas? (Directed at the wonderful Belfast and the Belles she's with on the update) And are there Belles who believe in Santa Claus?

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2 hours ago, Wellington99 said:

For the next update (which might be a Christmas update), could you also send a small box of Belfast's favorite sweets with the following question:

What would you want for Christmas? (Directed at the wonderful Belfast and the Belles she's with on the update) And are there Belles who believe in Santa Claus?

I must disagree.  You’re following corporate America and celebrating Christmas a month early.  We have no less than three more updates before that wonderful day.  Although I wouldn’t mind sending along some treats for the belles.  I made some ginger snaps and still have plenty that I have no idea what I’ll do with.

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Well save that question and the treats for the Christmas update. 

Knowing it’s probably been answered before, but does wearing their rigging do anything for the Belles or is it just cosmetic?

And are there any Belles whose namesakes were rivals of each other or friends and they emulate it? An example being Hood and Rodney, as Hood, Rodney’s second in command, accused Rodney of sacrificing the interest of the service to his own profit and “of showing want of energy in pursuit of the French on 12 April 1782”. Would Hood and Rodney have the same kind of relationship, especially with Hood being the pride and joy of the Royal Navy and technically Rodney’s superior in this turn around? Adding in with that, do the ships named after admirals and captains often argue over who is the better at battle strategy and tactics?

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22 hours ago, Ninjapacman said:

I assume you're referring to USS The Sullivans, who in herself is an entirely isolated case.  As the only ship in history that I can think of named after a specific set of more than one person, she is unique in both her namesake and their circumstances, and likely has several caveats on what a belle would otherwise know about her namesake.  She does however, fall under the classic category of being named in response to said persons' demise, when all five died during or after the sinking of USS Juneau.  I would also like to add that we are strictly talking Pre-September '39, for the purposes of lore, so a ship like USS The Sullivans (Being 1943 commission) would be wholly unknown to whatever presenter we get.

Sadly, The Sullivans is not unique:  USS Rogers (DD-876) was named for three brothers on USS New Orleans who were all killed in the Battle of Tassafaronga (which occurred less than three weeks after USS Juneau was torpedoed).

 

The policy for US warships between 1900 and 1980 (i.e. during WW2) was firm: warships received names of deceased individuals only.  The only reason then to give a US warship the name of a living individual, would be to "experiment" with what kind of link a Belle created might have; a move that would no doubt be controversial.

Certainly if any Imperial Japanese warships popped up named after individuals (living or dead) that would be why...

15 hours ago, Wellington99 said:

And are there Belles who believe in Santa Claus?

Last year's Christmas Party (Part 1)

and 2...

and 3.

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5 hours ago, Wellington99 said:

Knowing it’s probably been answered before, but does wearing their rigging do anything for the Belles or is it just cosmetic?

That's a good question.  I've understood over various questions and Updates that the Rigging is sort of what the belles want it to be.  It's not actually useful for combat, but it sort of allows them to show who they are as a fighter.

1 hour ago, Panay's Ghost said:

Sadly, The Sullivans is not unique:  USS Rogers (DD-876) was named for three brothers on USS New Orleans who were all killed in the Battle of Tassafaronga (which occurred less than three weeks after USS Juneau was torpedoed).

The policy for US warships between 1900 and 1980 (i.e. during WW2) was firm: warships received names of deceased individuals only.  The only reason then to give a US warship the name of a living individual, would be to "experiment" with what kind of link a Belle created might have; a move that would no doubt be controversial.

Certainly if any Imperial Japanese warships popped up named after individuals (living or dead) that would be why...

Well, for one, thanks for correcting me about USS Rogers, and for two, Even if there are no real examples as of '39 (Which I had thought to be the case anyways) I think it's an interesting Hypothetical to delve into.

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On 11/30/2018 at 9:36 PM, lazarusdw said:

it would appear that names have far more power than i first thought. what would happen if a belle had her name changed........... Ninja i have a idea if names are so powerfull could a belles allegiance be changed with a name change perhaps morgana's too. now excuse me i have some old tomes to read though

That was talked about and answered by Goeben alias Yavuz.

Edit: I would like to know which U-Boot commander is the most favoured by the known U-Bootwalküren or if not favoured, the most inspiring? I believe the answer to that question could be useful to all captains.

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On 12/1/2018 at 1:40 PM, Panay's Ghost said:

Sadly, The Sullivans is not unique:  USS Rogers (DD-876) was named for three brothers on USS New Orleans who were all killed in the Battle of Tassafaronga (which occurred less than three weeks after USS Juneau was torpedoed).

 

The policy for US warships between 1900 and 1980 (i.e. during WW2) was firm: warships received names of deceased individuals only.  The only reason then to give a US warship the name of a living individual, would be to "experiment" with what kind of link a Belle created might have; a move that would no doubt be controversial.

Certainly if any Imperial Japanese warships popped up named after individuals (living or dead) that would be why...

Last year's Christmas Party (Part 1)

and 2...

and 3.

Well I see the Sinterklaas celebration, but no one outright saying they believe in Santa

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Dear HQ,

Requesting the names and grid coordinates of any Belles who happen to practice the more... original form of Yule, or otherwise appreciate the spirit of bah humbug. I'll be sending the latter a bottle of their preferred spirits and other survival necessities to hopefully ease the strain on sanity that is the Winter Holiday season and some appropriate seasonal goodies to the former, preferences towards axs or swords should be indicated in writing no later than one week before the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere.

T. Heavens, USMC

Commanding 

----

Actually more seriously, it's a topic that the staff would probably want to avoid at all costs because it's more sensitive than a complicated dance routine in a high density minefield, depending on where you take it and how but Belles talking about what they "believe" in general would be of great interest. It might be seem a bit odd, but bear with me for a moment. (Don't stick this bit in a dispatch to the Belles! I'd hate to look dumb in the Captain's Association dispatches that follow.)

------

To sailors and Marines, Belles didn't need to manifest for us to know they were there. It was, and is, an article of faith, we have evidence of this faith of sailors and their amphibian counterparts dating back to Greek Tiremes if not earlier still. Superstition drives the heart and soul of the sailor and the Marine and always has. Our ships are everything to us, and we love them as such. Shelter, sword and shield, a mental haven as the ramp drops on an assault craft, where you return, either in good spirits, flush with the twin thrills of victory and survival against all odds, or to be healed, or shattered, to be conveyed home or to be passed into the sea to eternal rest. For many of us over the centuries, those same ships became our place of final rest themselves.

How could such creations, more than the sum of their parts, be it wood, iron or steel, not have something more to them than just being a mere object? So strong is this emotion, so strong is this conviction, this article of faith, that... it simply is. Civilians and the land bound do not question this faith, they see it as normal, and how we refer to ships and aircraft in most if not all world languages that have words for such things reflect that faith.

Not mere objects. Her. She, not it. It's not that ships are just gendered in the same way certain words are gendered in say the romance langauges either. They are referred to like one would refer to a person. In tones ranging from friend, to lover, to trying to start a bar fighting during a particularly frustrating maintenance task. This linguistic reflection is subtle, but I believe because of it, many people who come into contact with a ship knows that there's something special in them. That a heart beats within her engines. The crews of the USS Constitution were men of courage and honor, but the ship herself is famous, a legend in her own right, lauded and beloved by every American who has heard her name. How could there not be something more there than just some wood and iron fittings? So when the Belles rose, we may have been surprised because it happened, but if any man or woman aboard was worth their salt, they weren't surprised that the Belles were there, because all that happened is that our faith was vindicated.

So it appeals to an old salt like me to ask a superstition about their own superstitions. Belfast for example may well carry some belief or sense of the old Fae lore of our mutual home island with her. 

Respectfully submitted,

T. Heavens, USMC

Commanding 

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I couldn't agree more with TwoHeavens.

I think the more interesting question is if Sinterklass/ Santa Claus/ Saint Nicholas believes in Belles...

Scuba diving Santa entertains kids at aquarium

😉

***

It has been established that Belles who are sunk and re-floated are never quite the same.  I'm curious if that is true for the Belles of ships that were lost, re-floated and returned to service before the start of the war.

Such potential does exist.  Consider USS S-38 (SS-143): who had a mishap in July of 1923, but following repairs and clean-up has been in active service.   Another example is the Spanish destroyer Císcar, victim of the Spanish Civil War but refloated and repaired. 

Would it be something from her past that she'd rather not dwell on, or would there be more obvious consequences to the Belle?

 

 There is also the question of ships in the process of being salvaged at the start of the war: HMS Thetis and USS Squalus.  Both submarines have been below since Spring, with salvage operations well underway; under optimal circumstances (in real life) Thetis should be raised on September 3rd and Squalus on September 13th.  As of September 1st however,  circumstances have become less than optimal. Are they among the first casualties of the war, or is there still hope of recovering them?

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If anything I'd think it would be even more vital to salvage them at once. Chances are a fair few ships are sunk outright before the Belles can start fighting back, humanity will need every hull they can get. If they (the subs) manage to manifest they might even be able to help the recovery crews. The US Navy also had some pretty reasonable motivations to bring Squalus home, and I think those motivations would be even more critical with the Navy suddenly going to war status.

I'd also theorize that they likely could manifest, as I believe both boats were still in commission as of the start of the war, and that seems to be one of the critical factors. 

Could be an interesting fan work if neither sub is in the game. A PoV for Squalus or Thetis awaking alone in the dark*, wanting ever so desperately to fight, but being unable to do so, being so terribly alone. Wondering if this is their fate. If they've been forgotten, abandoned. Such thoughts in such extreme conditions are more  than enough to drive a human mad, I can imagine either Belle needing some therapy once they'd been secured in drydock for repair. But to end the story on a pleasant note you can have someone from the recovery team above wonder if what's been happening around the fleet might have happened to their charge. Scuttlebutt and superstition would make word get around. So if you want to keep the sub in her isolation without direct interaction, you have some sailors grab a bottle shove a note in it, seal it, and attach some ballast, and drop it over the side... where it will land approximately on the sub's conning tower or deck. 

Five words. "We're coming. It'll be okay."

She grasps the disintegrating scrap of paper to her chest for a moment, tears of pain, of loss, of relief, if any did fall, lost in the salt water that surrounded her. Resolve was the emotion she found next. She wasn't forgotten, wasn't alone, and the same people fighting to save her would need her to save them in turn.

 

Alternatively you could have some divers from the USS Falcon return to the site and come down and check on her. Or any of the divers from the salvage team. Lots of options.

 

Speaking of unlucky boats and names though the Thetis/Thunderbolt really had a bad run of it didn't she? One of the only vessels in human history to be lost with all hands** twice.

*That both girls would be awaking with the... human consequences of submarine accidents aboard is something likely best left unexplored and unmentioned for tact's sake.

**To be fair four managed to escape the Thetis.

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14 minutes ago, TwoHeavens said:

If anything I'd think it would be even more vital to salvage them at once. Chances are a fair few ships are sunk outright before the Belles can start fighting back, humanity will need every hull they can get. If they (the subs) manage to manifest they might even be able to help the recovery crews. The US Navy also had some pretty reasonable motivations to bring Squalus home, and I think those motivations would be even more critical with the Navy suddenly going to war status.

I'd also theorize that they likely could manifest, as I believe both boats were still in commission as of the start of the war, and that seems to be one of the critical factors. 

Could be an interesting fan work if neither sub is in the game. A PoV for Squalus or Thetis awaking alone in the dark*, wanting ever so desperately to fight, but being unable to do so, being so terribly alone. Wondering if this is their fate. If they've been forgotten, abandoned. Such thoughts in such extreme conditions are more  than enough to drive a human mad, I can imagine either Belle needing some therapy once they'd been secured in drydock for repair. But to end the story on a pleasant note you can have someone from the recovery team above wonder if what's been happening around the fleet might have happened to their charge. Scuttlebutt and superstition would make word get around. So if you want to keep the sub in her isolation without direct interaction, you have some sailors grab a bottle shove a note in it, seal it, and attach some ballast, and drop it over the side... where it will land approximately on the sub's conning tower or deck. 

Five words. "We're coming. It'll be okay."

She grasps the disintegrating scrap of paper to her chest for a moment, tears of pain, of loss, of relief, if any did fall, lost in the salt water that surrounded her. Resolve was the emotion she found next. She wasn't forgotten, wasn't alone, and the same people fighting to save her would need her to save them in turn.

 

Alternatively you could have some divers from the USS Falcon return to the site and come down and check on her. Or any of the divers from the salvage team. Lots of options.

 

Speaking of unlucky boats and names though the Thetis/Thunderbolt really had a bad run of it didn't she? One of the only vessels in human history to be lost with all hands** twice.

*That both girls would be awaking with the... human consequences of submarine accidents aboard is something likely best left unexplored and unmentioned for tact's sake.

**To be fair four managed to escape the Thetis.

if that's true then wonder how far back you can go. The German high fleet anyone

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In my opinion there's two limiters.

One there's a difference between under and recoverable and well and truly sunk. Submarines by their nature get a bit more play in that particular condition than surface vessels, but I think the critical difference is, both Squalus and Thetis could be returned to active service, again a benefit of being a submarine. The average warship sunk cannot no matter how much work one cares to put into them. 

Two, the HSF have been decommissioned and struck from their respective naval list. Struck so severely that the Navy they once belonged to no longer exists. I consider this... not so much the killing blow as it is the closing of a chapter in a history for a lineage of ships, or individual vessels until called to service again (USS Mahan for example is once again in active service with the US Navy, as I mentioned in my own VB short story Forward Unto Victory.) It's the act of decommissioning that means the spirit moves on. Which of course brings up questions about Squalus and Thetis when they are taken into dry dock. Would the Sailfish and Thunderbolt still exist?

However. Our own Scootia is the man to ask about the HSF. Considering that is literally the plot of the fan story he's writing, starting off the with battlecruiser SMS Derfflinger. Which, if any of the HSF could manifest a Belle, it would most certainly be the Iron Dog considering she was raised and anchored (still capsized mind you) near Scapa Flow. Which may be why Scoot selected her as the lead Belle for his story.

Recap & Conclusion:

Sqaulus and Thetis are unique in that not only were they still commissioned, while technically being wrecks/sunk they were in a condition that could and did eventually allow both boats to return to active naval service. You're not going to find many ships of any age that fit that profile, and precious few submarines too. All the more reason that both subs should be recovered with all due haste. A submarine is a valuable asset. A submarine with a Belle is valuable beyond measure.

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4 hours ago, lazarusdw said:

if that's true then wonder how far back you can go. The German high fleet anyone

I know who you're after. Even TH smelled it instinctively. If they really put that possibility in...... if you'd raise me with your british crew..... I'd rather sink myself again.

It's also true what he says about the spirit passing on. C/Köln, Karlsruhe and Brummer are out by this as well.

But you know what they'd be perfect for, strictly storywise speaking? First Morganas to be encountered by the Royal Navy. Because they hate you but are also outdated..... but that's just me.

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4 hours ago, TwoHeavens said:

Recap & Conclusion:

Sqaulus and Thetis are unique in that not only were they still commissioned, while technically being wrecks/sunk they were in a condition that could and did eventually allow both boats to return to active naval service. You're not going to find many ships of any age that fit that profile, and precious few submarines too. All the more reason that both subs should be recovered with all due haste. A submarine is a valuable asset. A submarine with a Belle is valuable beyond measure.

A submarine is a valuable asset.  A submarine with a Belle is valuable beyond measure.

Far be it from me to argue with that statement. 😁

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13 minutes ago, Panay's Ghost said:

Far be it from me to argue with that statement. 😁

I mean, I'd say the same about any strategic/tactical asset. It just so happens that submarines are strategic assets designed to go under water and then come up again, so if they happen to go under and not come up... that doesn't have to be the end of that asset. Especially now that modern medicine has conveniently figured out this nitrogen narcosis thing that I know nothing about because it's the literal cutting edge of medical research proven literally a couple days ago and these heliox dive schedules and equipment that I also know nothing about except hearing one of my chief petty officers hold forth at length about the subject in the ward room after a staff meeting because it is such specialist knowledge that even the experts in the field don't really know anything about it yet. Because it's the Fall of 1939.  ;)

 Okay maybe there's some slight bias for submarines implicit in that statement. 

 

2 hours ago, Käpt'n Korky said:

I know who you're after. Even TH smelled it instinctively. If they really put that possibility in...... if you'd raise me with your british crew..... I'd rather sink myself again.

It's also true what he says about the spirit passing on. C/Köln, Karlsruhe and Brummer are out by this as well.

But you know what they'd be perfect for, strictly storywise speaking? First Morganas to be encountered by the Royal Navy. Because they hate you but are also outdated..... but that's just me.

Assuming Morgana are generated in that way it makes sense plot wise to me. From what we've been told for the game however, that's not the case. 

In a theoretical world where the Iron Dog gets to come out of the the eternal time out kennel she's in instead of just being the aquatic equivalent of a lawn sculpture for the British Admiralty at Scapa... I think they'd be hard pressed to find English sailors willing to volunteer to crew aboard her. The feeling of hostility quite mutual, and the tension from the phony war isn't helping anything after all. I also wonder if the Nazis would want symbols of Imperial Germany "back". There's a few remaining HSF ships in the Kriegsmarine of course but those ships are largely out of the actual combatant portion of the Kriegsmarine beyond shore bombardment, and that is after extensive refits. So restoring, fitting out and crewing a badly outdated battlecruiser that won't even have her outdated WW1 era weapons is likely not going to get on the KM's "to do list" any time soon.

Some of it would of course depend on who she selected as her Captain, but I think the best results you're going to get is to scrape together some of her original crew if any are left in fighting shape (and they can be scammed away from the German military proper) and fill in the rest with international volunteers who don't like the British. Maybe Ireland would volunteer as a way to get into the Morgana war proper. Could be an interesting plot. What jack to fly on her would be it's own kettle of fish that I could see going many directions. 

[semi-ic]Honestly I'm looking for any possible out for the Derfflinger in terms of bringing her back. The idea of being a trophy for the British causes me physical pain and I can't help but think the old girl deserves better. That better might not mean active combat service either, though God only knows what Belles can accomplish with some creative engineers who know how to beg, borrow, scrounge and otherwise acquire needed parts and a motivated enough Captain who can make the budget happen by squeezing it from a stone if needed. [/semi-ic]

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There are plenty of Yanks of German descent, TH.  Navy, even.  A certain sub-experienced admiral destined to lead the War in the Pacific, for example.  The beauty of the American Melting Pot. 🙂

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