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Update 112: On Captains & Pin-Ups

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 THE UPDATE

Belfast bust.pngstewart bust.pngNagato bust.png

 

I am rather flattered they chose to answer my question, as well as the others.  I must say I was a little disappointed with how quickly they passed through it.  I was hoping for more belles' opinions on the matter, after all.  Nonetheless, I do think I could get used to this level of flattery.  I'd also like to note that any update featuring lady Nagato is a plus in my book.
 

 

Once again however, I do have to check on the Japanese transliteration.  There's only one real mistake there that I think is worth noting.  Her first comment, when she says "Nan desu" is a little odd.  I think it should be "Nan desu ka?"  With only Nan Desu it's a bit like saying What is?  If she was being informal, Nan da? would be correct, but Desu implies formality, so to speak properly you need to add Ka at the end for a question.

 

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Nagato wants a captain who's disciplined, cultured and fearless...  I need to see a man about sending a war spirit a bayonet and a letter. While I look into the details of transpacific air mail while half the Pacific is on fire can I just say that Stewart's insistence on a *forgiving* Captain is all kinds of concerning?

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Remind me to flatter Belfast more often. Also first instance of "goober". Belfast is kind of one but I still love the lass 

Spoiler

And looking at the update,I think Stewart would like a captain who was a tight end, knows how to handle balls and can take a pounding

 

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2 minutes ago, TwoHeavens said:

Nagato wants a captain who's disciplined, cultured and fearless...  I need to see a man about sending a war spirit a bayonet and a letter. While I look into the details of transpacific air mail while half the Pacific is on fire can I just say that Stewart's insistence on a *forgiving* Captain is all kinds of concerning?

To be fair, she did mention being good looking first. Maybe it's a lot of column A and a bit of column B? Lol But in all seriousness, someone get Nagato a Tijuana Bible just to ruffle her feathers ?

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1 hour ago, RockyArby said:

To be fair, she did mention being good looking first. Maybe it's a lot of column A and a bit of column B? Lol But in all seriousness, someone get Nagato a Tijuana Bible just to ruffle her feathers ?

Dunno mate, seems like Stewart wants a a handsome man with a forgiving personality, so that's not necessarily a one or the other proposition. Beautiful people can have personalities too you know. ;). Maybe if you're forgiving enough it'd make up for some lacking in the looks department?

1 hour ago, Wellington99 said:

Remind me to flatter Belfast more often. Also first instance of "goober". Belfast is kind of one but I still love the lass 

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And looking at the update,I think Stewart would like a captain who was a tight end, knows how to handle balls and can take a pounding

 

Being a goober is no crime, and Belfast is definitely one. At least how I use it, which is a silly kind of cute. Consider a serious and sharp eyed lass who immediately turns into a blushing puddle if you express your feelings to her.

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That’s exactly Belfast, now excuse me while I whip up lines to flatter her with

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20 minutes ago, Legate of Mineta said:

Ninja;

I think the original had 'ka', but probably it was forgotten in the edit. Good catch, though!

My pleasure.  I do love the language, and I can't wait to talk to some of my belles using it.  I would only hope that they show the proper care and dedication that any honorable servant of His Divine Grace The Emperor would.

In other news, your DMs are full again, so I can't message you.

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So after talking it out with Ninjapacman, and a quick consult with some other folks up on Japanese linguistics and culture I would like to raise issue with a term Nagato used in this update. "Senchou no Kamigami" is a bit... inelegant. Previously Belles have used senchou, kanchou and "Kaigun-daisa" to address the avatar of the Captain's Association (Poor fellow must be quite stressed with all of us crammed into their head). The latter is accurate for the formal rank of Captain, which a Belle Captain might not be, and senchou/kanchou is accurate for the position of captain. The position and the rank of course are not the same thing, even in the US Navy today. We also believe that, especially as the Japanese government and military were in the early 20th century, they would not use such a term. As Nagato herself mentions, the Japanese belles are a *very* big deal in Japan, not just from a military perspective, but from a religious one.

To that end, I/we would like to suggest a new term that encompasses the full picture of what a Belle Captain would be in Japan and would be used in more formal speech than just "senchou/kanchou". A proper billet title by US terms. We propose the following. "Mikoshibune-no-Kanchō". (神輿船の神長) Roughly in English (Holy) Captain of the (Portable) Shrine Ship. Now some of this is just a twist in terms of translating Japanese into English, and translating Japanese *concepts* into English. So let's take it from the top. 

A Mikoshi or portable shrine (what you see at shrine festivals being carried around) is a temporary residence for the kami. A shrine's location itself is part of what makes it important after all, and ships move. Further, if you permanently enshrined a warship, even with an avatar of said kami present (the Belle) you'd probably deeply piss said original god off if said ship got sunk. All of this flows nicely from the perspective of State Shinto. Most, if not all of the major warships were named for features like mountains and rivers, which would already have their own cults within Shinto. There's even precedents, both for Mikoshi being dipped into a nearby lake or the surf at a shore line, and for Mikoshi being installed on boats. 

Kanchō is a bit more subtle in this instance, and is deriving extra meaning from the term "Kannushi" (神主), a term for a Shinto priest which translates out to "God Master" in a somewhat literal reading. Kanchou written as "艦長" is a warship's captain. If we change that reading to "神長" you still get "Kanchou"but the meaning is more literally read as "Head of God" similar to Kannushi. 

A further way to refer specifically to a IJN Belle Captain, or to the captain of a Japanese Belle with the above billet, as distinct from "kanchou" in spoken Japanese would likely include the honorific prefix "o", as in okanchou (御艦長). This indicates the more specific religious tone, and could also be applied specifically to to an individual's rank. This signifier becomes yet more important in mixed company, say with the conventional captains of a Belle captain's fleet.

天皇陛下万歳

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Are you suggesting that a Japanese Belle's captain is somehow also regarded as some sort of priest, or it's just me completely missing the point?

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I am blatantly stating that a Japanese Belle's Captain would be considered in that light under the auspices of State Shinto in the 1930s and 40s. Especially in light of Nagato's comments regarding how Belles are viewed in Japanese society. From the Japanese perspective the Captain or a Captain of a Belle is an individual who has been personally selected by the Kami, this has an inherently religious value to it, and there are some parallels culturally to the role of the Kannushi for a Belle Captain. In acting as a medium between the lay people and the spirits/gods in particular. That might not be how some of the Belles themselves see it, or some of their crews, but it's how Japanese society, the Imperial Government and the Imperial Household Agency (the buck stops here for State Shinto) would see it, and they're the ones who set the terminology to distinguish a captain of a Belle.

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4 hours ago, TwoHeavens said:

I am blatantly stating that a Japanese Belle's Captain would be considered in that light under the auspices of State Shinto in the 1930s and 40s. Especially in light of Nagato's comments regarding how Belles are viewed in Japanese society. From the Japanese perspective the Captain or a Captain of a Belle is an individual who has been personally selected by the Kami, this has an inherently religious value to it, and there are some parallels culturally to the role of the Kannushi for a Belle Captain. In acting as a medium between the lay people and the spirits/gods in particular. That might not be how some of the Belles themselves see it, or some of their crews, but it's how Japanese society, the Imperial Government and the Imperial Household Agency (the buck stops here for State Shinto) would see it, and they're the ones who set the terminology to distinguish a captain of a Belle.

I like this, though the question is raised would Japanese society in WW2 accept a foreigner as a priest in their state religion?

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19 minutes ago, RockyArby said:

I like this, though the question is raised would Japanese society in WW2 accept a foreigner as a priest in their state religion?

Twoheavens and I agreed that would be its own can of worms.  Firstly, the Japanese are highly Xenophobic.  Secondly, the state control of shinto; and at least by the assumptions we use, control of that title, creates a situation where the state technically has the power to deny that title to the captain and dock the belle for the duration of the war as they see fit.  Now, the INPF might have a few words to say about that, but if Japan's inter-war record is anything to go by, those words will fall upon deaf ears.  The main thing those government types might have to worry about is that Belle throwing a bit of a fit.  Warships throwing fits is never an easy thing to deal with.

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7 hours ago, Ninjapacman said:

Twoheavens and I agreed that would be its own can of worms.  Firstly, the Japanese are highly Xenophobic.  Secondly, the state control of shinto; and at least by the assumptions we use, control of that title, creates a situation where the state technically has the power to deny that title to the captain and dock the belle for the duration of the war as they see fit.  Now, the INPF might have a few words to say about that, but if Japan's inter-war record is anything to go by, those words will fall upon deaf ears.  The main thing those government types might have to worry about is that Belle throwing a bit of a fit.  Warships throwing fits is never an easy thing to deal with.

makes me wonder what would happen if a belle decided that someone was a threat to the nation

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7 hours ago, RockyArby said:

I like this, though the question is raised would Japanese society in WW2 accept a foreigner as a priest in their state religion?

 

7 hours ago, Ninjapacman said:

Twoheavens and I agreed that would be its own can of worms.  Firstly, the Japanese are highly Xenophobic.  Secondly, the state control of shinto; and at least by the assumptions we use, control of that title, creates a situation where the state technically has the power to deny that title to the captain and dock the belle for the duration of the war as they see fit.  Now, the INPF might have a few words to say about that, but if Japan's inter-war record is anything to go by, those words will fall upon deaf ears.  The main thing those government types might have to worry about is that Belle throwing a bit of a fit.  Warships throwing fits is never an easy thing to deal with.

This is all about propaganda and information control. Much like when we discussed "The Jewish Question" for a Kriegsmarine captain or Belle. Sure you could lock the captain up and dry dock the Belle. Which is ill advised, especially for the Japanese who are NECK deep in the shit during the Morgana war. Everyone else is gonna be facing issues. The Brits and the Japanese are facing existential crises. There is nowhere on either island to run. Precious few places to hide. They either put every gun to sea they can and win there... or they die at home. Plus, putting an "undesirable" captain to sea, doing something useful, is out of sight, out of mind. They don't have to name the real captain in press releases after all. There's other options as well. Hitler hand waved the whole race issue for an entire nation, the military government and the Emperor can manage it for one or two individuals. So it'd be a clusterfuck but it's something they can work with, and they have every motivation to do so.

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Yay, Belfast-senpai noticed m(y question)e~ That warms my cold black heart.

I like how Nagato has more of a bite to her sarcasm, poor Stewart.

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It was an enjoyable read.

And my congratulations to the writers. You deflected the saucy parts of the questions very effective. See overthought discussion above.

I actually had only one question left regarding the holiness of kami-marus: Is only the bridge surrounded by a Shimenawa or the whole ship or other parts of it?

And on further thought: The SS probably discovers a sudden interest in the naval parts of war.

 

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It would probably depend on the crew and kami in question. Chances are a room would be given over to a kamidana style shrine to contain the actual shintai from the parent cult. That room would be lined with a shimenawa, and possibly other critical areas. I could see an argument made for a shimenawa over the hatch to the engine room for example. 

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I just (re-)read your post @TwoHeavens and thought about how some japanese Walküren would feel if a priest stands before them, presents the new inner shrine (usually not bigger than a chair) and tells her "Here's you new home!" .... Nah. Anyhow. I think you overthink the issue massively in aspects of ingame content. But we'll see.

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I think you're absolutely right that I've completely over thought this, but a lot of the fun parts about the fluff surrounding Victory Belles so far is the world building. No ship girl media outside of VB has been willing to address what the world sees a Belle as for the most part, because that's more depth that those media properties need or desire to follow. It's simply of no real benefit to them. Work out the background and small details in game might feel just a bit more natural for people playing. I mean this whole discussion started because I looked at a couple words of Japanese and went "Huh, that feels linguistically and culturally wrong" after all. I'd expect you and Khorn to make similar arguments over finer points of German linguistics and culture as applied to the game if something stuck out like that to you. 

It's also worth noting that housing an incarnate kami or avatar of the kami to their desires... not to tradition, would be considered of rather grave import. So I'd expect Japanese belles would have quarters if they so desired. Pissing a god off is generally not something most people want to do. Especially when that god has a battery of 41cm guns. 

I wonder if Voykov has quarters. Or if she sleeps. Or eats. A lot of the Belles we've met have been quite "human" in their behavior, Voykov has more in common with the Terminator. Be interesting if she allowed herself such "frivolous" things. We also haven't met a truly "inhuman" Belle either which also has interesting potential. 

 

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2 hours ago, TwoHeavens said:

I think you're absolutely right that I've completely over thought this, but a lot of the fun parts about the fluff surrounding Victory Belles so far is the world building. No ship girl media outside of VB has been willing to address what the world sees a Belle as for the most part, because that's more depth that those media properties need or desire to follow. It's simply of no real benefit to them. Work out the background and small details in game might feel just a bit more natural for people playing. I mean this whole discussion started because I looked at a couple words of Japanese and went "Huh, that feels linguistically and culturally wrong" after all. I'd expect you and Khorn to make similar arguments over finer points of German linguistics and culture as applied to the game if something stuck out like that to you. 

It's also worth noting that housing an incarnate kami or avatar of the kami to their desires... not to tradition, would be considered of rather grave import. So I'd expect Japanese belles would have quarters if they so desired. Pissing a god off is generally not something most people want to do. Especially when that god has a battery of 41cm guns. 

I wonder if Voykov has quarters. Or if she sleeps. Or eats. A lot of the Belles we've met have been quite "human" in their behavior, Voykov has more in common with the Terminator. Be interesting if she allowed herself such "frivolous" things. We also haven't met a truly "inhuman" Belle either which also has interesting potential. 

 

I have asked about how similar are belles biological to humans no answer yet. However thanks to Henley we know that belles can feel hungry and Mahan has been bribed with food before. Now weather need to eat or just like to taste things that's unanswered.

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On 8/30/2018 at 5:44 PM, lazarusdw said:

I have asked about how similar are belles biological to humans no answer yet. However thanks to Henley we know that belles can feel hungry and Mahan has been bribed with food before. Now weather need to eat or just like to taste things that's unanswered.

I thought we'd already heard about that multiple times from one Belle or another. That might just be head cannon stuff in my head though.

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