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Update 115: Captain's Association Special: On Sleeping Belles

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Oh shoot, my name showed up! Awesome to hear. I did in fact meant the philosophical meaning I guess. Didn't expect to get my answer from Nurnburg of all people.

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When I first saw the title "On Sleeping Belles", I actually thought it would be about literally "sleeping Belles". Like in, Belles, sleeping.
Instantly I realized how silly such a thing would be, and was not surprised to see they really meant "non-awakened Belles"

When they say that "Every ship has a Belle", do they mean EVERY ship?
Like, even a shabby rowboat, for example? (when does something start counting as a "ship" anyway)

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Submarine girls can turn invisible imagine the shenanigans 

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3 hours ago, Dmnt said:

When I first saw the title "On Sleeping Belles", I actually thought it would be about literally "sleeping Belles". Like in, Belles, sleeping.
Instantly I realized how silly such a thing would be, and was not surprised to see they really meant "non-awakened Belles"

When they say that "Every ship has a Belle", do they mean EVERY ship?
Like, even a shabby rowboat, for example? (when does something start counting as a "ship" anyway)

I've often considered this, and I think I have a solid answer for you, taken from many hours in the general questions thread and reading back through dozens of updates.  I've gotten a little bit crazy when It comes to researching these things.  Plus a lot of this is my own speculation anyways.  The stuff I've known for quite some time is basically what was revealed in this update.  That belles can 'talk' to or otherwise communicate with any ship, whether or not it has an active belle.  In this update, they seem to have quite clearly stated that every ship does have a belle, some are just Dormant, if you will.  I've touched on this in my "To die on your feet" Story (Shameless writer plug, woo!). What this mostly boils down to is that if a belle is being refueled by a fleet oiler, which doesn't harbor a sentient girl walking the deck, she can still have a friendly conversation with it while she "drinks".  She could also possibly give it a bit of instruction, and to some degree, the oiler might be inclined to follow, whether or not her crew are aware.

As for what ships actually qualify for "Every ship has a belle," that goes into more philosophical things, and far more speculation.  Being a fan of supernatural things like this and having my own opinions on it for many years, I think this more relates to a case-by-case basis for the ship itself.  It really depends on how much of a "Spirit" the ship has.  For example, a great warship with a large following, tons of stories about her, and a famed namesake with plenty of meaning will have a very defined and clear belle with a distinguished and powerful presence.  On the other hand, something like an unnamed lifeboat on a cruise liner with dozens of identical sisters would have almost no power, as nobody knows her or cares, nor was she made with any particular care or significance.  On the other hand, a fishing boat smaller than said lifeboat, but with her own name, crewed by a father and son who love her and take good care of her, and with plenty of miles on whatever lake she sails, might just have a belle with a certain amount of power to her.  That's the thing about spirits.  The more you take care of them and believe in them, the more real they become.  Such a girl on that fishing boat might even have some presence to her, even a manifestation.  Something like the Queen Mary in Long Beach harbor, despite not being a warship, but well-known, well-storied, and brought to life in dozens of ways over the decades, would be quite the presence indeed.

Quote

Submarine girls can turn invisible imagine the shenanigans 

A noted dozens of times in several interviews, updates, and otherwise threads on the forum, belles can appear and disappear as they wish.  Some surface ship belles will rarely show their faces to the crew at all, preferring to remain a silent and hidden watcher.  Ships like Kirov on the other hand, or even nautilus, will be quite proactive in being visible aboard their ship.  So technically all belles can turn invisible, but I suspect from reading this update that submarine girls can sort of hide themselves from surface ship belles while manifesting.

I hope that answers your questions.  As for my own thoughts on the update, this post is getting to be quite long, so here's a spoiler tag:

 

As I mentioned above, I quite believe in such things as the fact that every ship has a belle.  With this update brings along the question of ships such as HMS Victory.  I've already shared my thoughts on her and USS Constitution in the VB discord, as both are great and storied ships with rich and quite long histories.  Both were commissioned before the 19th century, and both fought extensively during it.  Both are still in commission, but only the Constitution is afloat.  Either would make quite the interesting golden girl belle.  I'm certain there would be a certain amount of solidarity between them, despite their opposition in the war of 1812.  Due to the nature of their shared honors and situations (And the fact that they were both giving the french a good kick in the bottom at the turn of the 19th century) I think they would be old friends, willing to be mentors and matrons to the shiny new belles in their respective fleets.  I'm rather interested in them, and quite so in another sailing ship that was still in commission until 1955... (putting aside a decommission from 1933-1940).  But I think I've said enough for now.

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1 hour ago, Ninjapacman said:

A noted dozens of times in several interviews, updates, and otherwise threads on the forum, belles can appear and disappear as they wish.

While this statement is true, I always assumed it was something they could only do when on board their own ship. Like, melding into themselves, if that makes any sense. But if they were to walk over to somewhere else, be it a different ship, or onto land, they couldn't "un-manifest" until they return.

 

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5 minutes ago, Dmnt said:

While this statement is true, I always assumed it was something they could only do when on board their own ship. Like, melding into themselves, if that makes any sense. But if they were to walk over to somewhere else, be it a different ship, or onto land, they couldn't "un-manifest" until they return.

 

You raise a good point, as I haven't actually determined that specific.  Rather, if I have, I don't remember what the verdict was.  I'll have to go back and do more research on the topic.

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Spoiler

>Anyway, after the mailbag last week, and a couple of the more self-motivating Belles decided that that meant they might get a crack at you to pursue some of their own interests this week. 

Tech week when?

>They do say her presence is why Portsmouth hasn't been raided.

*popcorn*

 

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I think the line between a boat and a ship is really quite clear. The Navy (and Marine Corps) rule of thumb if that a boat can be carried by a ship, and a ship can carry a boat. Now obviously there's some exceptions to this rule, in the 20th and 21st century we saw massive floating dry docks and transport ships that are designed to quite literally ship ships, but that doesn't demote their cargo to boat status. So if we'd like to add some more qualifiers, we should look at intended use, and endurance. A ship is a blue water vessel (meaning the open ocean proper, no coast line hugging) intended for or capable of extensive voyages. A fleet oiler or replenishment ship is a ship because of their size, their endurance and their intended use to keep up with and support the fleet. So with that in mind, and the "rule" that every "ship" has a Belle to one extent or another, we can rule out a Belle popping up on every life boat or fishing trawler.

Now the rest of this is just conjecture and over all I'm very in line with Pac. The origin of Belles come from faith. Even modernly if you told an airman, sailor or sea duty Marine worth their salt had embodied itself they'd no doubt be a little surprised, but would accept the idea quite readily, because of course the ship has a spirit. Sure it's a bit odd that she's up and walking around, sitting in the mess and jawing with the crew, but why wouldn't she if she was indeed up and walking around herself? Since the days of ancient sail, and I do mean ancient, like before the Peloponnesian War ancient, when sea faring was young, sailors have believed quite firmly in the spirit of their vessels. (Almost universally female on a global scale too.) This idea is so common that it's in our language when we refer to a ship or vessel. "She" "Her", always as if she was a person herself. It's why I think ship girl media's so popular, well beyond what the creators of Kantai Collection or other properties expected. If we go with the conception that gods, any gods, exist because of human faith, usually based on a significant concept or edifice, then Belles are a quite literal case of deus ex machina. 

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28 minutes ago, TwoHeavens said:

I think the line between a boat and a ship is really quite clear. The Navy (and Marine Corps) rule of thumb if that a boat can be carried by a ship, and a ship can carry a boat. Now obviously there's some exceptions to this rule, in the 20th and 21st century we saw massive floating dry docks and transport ships that are designed to quite literally ship ships, but that doesn't demote their cargo to boat status. So if we'd like to add some more qualifiers, we should look at intended use, and endurance. A ship is a blue water vessel (meaning the open ocean proper, no coast line hugging) intended for or capable of extensive voyages. A fleet oiler or replenishment ship is a ship because of their size, their endurance and their intended use to keep up with and support the fleet. So with that in mind, and the "rule" that every "ship" has a Belle to one extent or another, we can rule out a Belle popping up on every life boat or fishing trawler.

Now the rest of this is just conjecture and over all I'm very in line with Pac. The origin of Belles come from faith. Even modernly if you told an airman, sailor or sea duty Marine worth their salt had embodied itself they'd no doubt be a little surprised, but would accept the idea quite readily, because of course the ship has a spirit. Sure it's a bit odd that she's up and walking around, sitting in the mess and jawing with the crew, but why wouldn't she if she was indeed up and walking around herself? Since the days of ancient sail, and I do mean ancient, like before the Peloponnesian War ancient, when sea faring was young, sailors have believed quite firmly in the spirit of their vessels. (Almost universally female on a global scale too.) This idea is so common that it's in our language when we refer to a ship or vessel. "She" "Her", always as if she was a person herself. It's why I think ship girl media's so popular, well beyond what the creators of Kantai Collection or other properties expected. If we go with the conception that gods, any gods, exist because of human faith, usually based on a significant concept or edifice, then Belles are a quite literal case of deus ex machina. 

just a couple of points some fishing trawlers are ocean going. And the RNLI definitely has storm passing ships and are not short of faith

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Fishing trawlers are ocean going, but they lack true endurance. You aren't going to circle the world in a trawler. You might be able to swing it, but it's way outside the design. Ditto the small water craft used by the RNLI, which are primarily focused on coastal operations around the British Isles last I knew.

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12 hours ago, TwoHeavens said:

I think the line between a boat and a ship is really quite clear. The Navy (and Marine Corps) rule of thumb if that a boat can be carried by a ship, and a ship can carry a boat. Now obviously there's some exceptions to this rule, in the 20th and 21st century we saw massive floating dry docks and transport ships that are designed to quite literally ship ships, but that doesn't demote their cargo to boat status. So if we'd like to add some more qualifiers, we should look at intended use, and endurance. A ship is a blue water vessel (meaning the open ocean proper, no coast line hugging) intended for or capable of extensive voyages. A fleet oiler or replenishment ship is a ship because of their size, their endurance and their intended use to keep up with and support the fleet. So with that in mind, and the "rule" that every "ship" has a Belle to one extent or another, we can rule out a Belle popping up on every life boat or fishing trawler.

The german navy has a different qualification. Every ship has a captain. So a U-Boot with at least a Korvettenkapitän on it becomes a U-Schiff technically. A mighty BB commanded by a mere 1st XO and no captain at all is not a battleship. It's a BattleBoat. (For all you nitpickers: A ship on which the captain dies stays a ship unless the surviving XO gets appointed commander of the ship, then a boat officially.)

So if you're a captain commanding a rowing boat, it's not a rowing boat. It's a rowing ship! That simple.

Note: A Kapitänsleutnant (KaLeu, or Stabskapitänleutnant/stabKaLeu) is not a captain. He's not addressed as "Herr Kapitän". Even though he has a "kapitän" in his ranks name. So "Das Boot" from the movie, commanded by a KaLeu IS in fact a Boot.

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Wasn't it already mentioned that a ship has to be a certain tonnage and above to harbor a Belle?

That made me think of another question. What would happen if a Belle got into a landing boat that belongs to herself? She can't go past her normal barrier, correct?

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On 9/8/2018 at 4:00 PM, Mignonette said:

Wasn't it already mentioned that a ship has to be a certain tonnage and above to harbor a Belle?

That made me think of another question. What would happen if a Belle got into a landing boat that belongs to herself? She can't go past her normal barrier, correct?

That is quite the interesting conundrum.  I actually have a little theory on that.  It’s sort of how extension of magical power works.  In a simple system of magic, I can surmise fairly that since the boat is a part of her, she can board it, and ride it away -probably to a far further extent than we’re she to walk off the deck- but think of it like stretching taffy.  Even though it can get very long, it has a limit, and the further it goes the thinner it gets.  So outside that regular 10yd limit, she can ride on the boat, but she couldn’t step off of it.

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On 9/10/2018 at 6:02 PM, Ninjapacman said:

That is quite the interesting conundrum.  I actually have a little theory on that.  It’s sort of how extension of magical power works.  In a simple system of magic, I can surmise fairly that since the boat is a part of her, she can board it, and ride it away -probably to a far further extent than we’re she to walk off the deck- but think of it like stretching taffy.  Even though it can get very long, it has a limit, and the further it goes the thinner it gets.  So outside that regular 10yd limit, she can ride on the boat, but she couldn’t step off of it.

And what if, when already beyond those limits, the boat sinks?

Can she magically get back to "her ship"?

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6 hours ago, Dmnt said:

And what if, when already beyond those limits, the boat sinks?

Can she magically get back to "her ship"?

I believe the quoted consequence when a belle is too far away is that she disappears, “going to sleep” for a certain amount of time.  Possibly a few hours, possibly a couple weeks.  She will reappear on the ship at the end of her rest period, though.

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Push too far, you run out of juice.

Or lose coherency too far from your projector.

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