Forbidden Magic

[freespace2dotcom]

Due to this not really being a question, (though a few will be asked) I decided to open a new thread on this. Basically, I asked the Legate about certain topics related to the school's handling of proscribed magics. I found out that these subjects were located in the game's lores. While I was unable to access a good chunk of these due to gameplay choices, such as silly things like not unlocking researching, (due to my choice in character not really being made specifically for a trip down the dark side) I still found the info I unlocked... I mean, the info that this character I know unlocked... Interesting.

 

First, for Mastery. The vast majority of unlockable spells truely are mean and spiteful, usually causing permanent loss of skills, and other tools for wasting a person's time. This in itself is not very surprising given the subject and the status of the magic, but I don't think I saw a single positive spell at all. While this could be the result of not wanting to risk your life on magic that could kill you, I still think that there should have been a spell or two with positive effects even if you probably wouldn't use it. I noticed that the overall spell list genuinely tipped me against Mastery in general. Seeing how that power could be abused, and references to certain Mastery spells being grounds for expulsion pre-ban I can understand it fully. I noticed, in the description for the Serenity Pheme, that "The Phemes from the school of Mastery are not" banned,(ALL of them????) even though the school itself is. That is an interesting statement, though I suspect it's a typo.

 

Overall, I Agree on the Mastery ban, whereas before I was not. I think that this could be avoided much better if, for example, they allow students to see just how dangerous at least one spell from Mastery can be. You don't need to teach them the phemes or anything, only show them the results of being controlled. I know the risk of proliferation is somewhat higher that way, but I think that show of "shock and awe" would eliminate the curiosity factor, and reduce the total number of people who would get involved in Mastery. I liken it to responsibly showing a child a firearm and explaining the consequences. For children as young as a first year, I think that that would make a much more profound personal impact than some abstract legal concept. As for anyone else who would still go down that path, really there's nothing you can do about it. The idea should be minimizing the number of people who use mastery, and It's my opinion that at least a very small highly regulated one-time controlled exposure "for effect" would be far more effective.

 

As a final say, I understand the ban, and would not actively work against it. If the ban was lifted for some reason I won't lie, my actual real character would probably pick up a fair number of spells from here but mostly just because it *is* magic, and thus cool, plus I can see some positive uses (even if only a few) from it so yeah.

 

As for Gates, I sympathize with the ban, as I have, I mean, I know someone who has read the reports on the supposed experimentations with a certain pheme in the years before "Monteon". With the likeliness of whatever caused the Monteon event reoccuring a significant issue when the magic has such an unfortunate chaotic nature, I cannot argue for an unban as things stand. I do not see, however, why an officially sanctioned research place, in the middle of nowhere, with but a handful of volunteers could not be allowed to have Gates magic within for the sole purpose of looking for the key to the stability issue. I think that it's actually a politics issue. In such a controlled environment The risks are fairly low, but in the event that something did Happen, I think that it would be worth the risk. I would think that a Gates wizard, who was around pre-ban, would genuinely consider using that magic in such a manner for no other reason than to be allowed to use it freely again as an end goal.

 

Gates also seems to have the ability to control, or at least restrain, any animals summoned, and It is noted that while again a good chunk of the spells seem to be hostile in nature, there are at least a couple that are at least neutral in nature. (Blood tarantula? Ohh, keep it away!) Plus the adventures I... I mean my friend came across with Gates in it were very utilitarian, and were well written! Not inherently hostile at all, really... I also got some insight to the ghost issue, and while there are a lot of questions on it (Which surely won't be answered by any professors... ) like why phemes such as bones, blood, heart, have anything to do with Gates, I suppose a dedicated Gates Wizard would find that out eventually.

 

Overall I agree with the ban as things stand, but I think that there should be a formal review of it. While I generally dislike summoning creatures and such, teleporting and summoning items is such a handy thing that, along with bags of holding, potential spells for immunity to physical actions, It's just WAY too handy a pillar to just ignore. While the "Chaos Factor" or CF as I will call it from here on is lamentable, there should be some formal committee to oversee finding the key to the CF in as safe and as responsible manner as possible. there is nothing inherently immoral about Gates and comparing it to Mastery in that regard is a crime. Soon, I will formally announce the Gates Unban petition! The signees will be a group of Academagians who seek peaceful change to a percieved flaw in the actions of the government.

 

And that is all.

[Mikka]

I think the problem with a small research facility is that the randomness of Gates means even if they were miles away from everything, a mistake could still result in an army of vampires being dropped on a small population center hundreds of miles away. No matter how safe and contained someone tries to make Gates, what can go wrong will go wrong.

 

(The fact that they all live on islands also means it's hard to find unpopulated areas, as there isn't that much space to spread out. I suppose they could use the ruins of Monteon, but considering all that happened there, that just sounds like it's asking for trouble.)

 

 

Personally, growing up around someone who was schizophrenic, it's hard for me to fully support the Mastery ban, if in game Mastery magic could 'cure' that, depression, bipoilar, PTSD, and so on. Those are difficult to live with, difficult to live around, and painful for all involved... if a cure exists, saying 'no' seems like a fools game. I agree, though, that what we see of Mastery magic in game is all horrible: going off what we see in game, I strongly support the ban. Depending lore wise what it could do for mental health issues, though, I may have to revise that opinion.

 

I support the Gates ban as well, though I don't have as strong opinions on it one way or another. I think creating creatures from nothing can head in bad directions: does the creature have a soul? How much will do they have? Is commanding them slavery? I think yes for the last one, so I oppose summoning, binding and ordering creatures on moral ground: if it was done to a human being, would it be horrible? If so, then yes, I disapprove.

 

(But I disapprove of a lot of what we in the real world do to animals, so my position is a bit extreme.)

 

 

I find writing characters who don't support the bans more fun, though, although the four students I'm working on... well. Heh.

[MadHatt]

Mastery is also useful in controlling Gates magic results. One area where pacifism is enforced and you can conjure up anything without worrying about being attacked. I find it difficult to think of one mage learning a pillar and disregarding the other from both the legal point of view (you're already practising something wrong) and the usefulness (if you're learning forbidden magic and hiding it, you're definitely a little paranoid)

 

Personally, I find Gates to be less useful in everyday life than Mastery. Sure, you'd need to teleport someday or need a certain animal there, but that would be rather limited to someone not actively involved in adventures. 'Course, Mastery could be replaced with Glamour for the purposes I think of but that's more difficult, as far as I know/understand, and less reliable.

 

I don't approve of either ban as a PC but I like the idea of forbidden magic as a player.

[freespace2dotcom]

I think I agree with you on both issues, Mikka, but with Gates I think that they could find at least one lone spot to experiment, with a small army ready to be raised up in an emergency not too close but not too far. From my understanding the CF for Gates is not like 50%. Nowhere near that, probably .5% or something even smaller. and if the research was strictly limited in one direction, with several masters agreeing before any spell was cast, the risks would be brought down as safe as it could be. I don't really like the idea of summoning animals, but that aspect itself would not be worth a general ban if the CF was eliminated. The complete ban was an understandable knee-jerk reaction to an unfortunate event, but if they do not find a way to fix it now, then Gates magic will be lost forever due to the deaths of the remaining pre-ban masters. Once they're gone, there would be no way to reasonably safely teach a mage all that would be necessary to become a master AND then research the CF. It has to be done soon...

[swang]

I don't understand how anyone can see that Puppet Master is an evil spell. I obviously know what's the best for my entire clique, I should be given the opportunity to help my clique fulfill my their innermost dreams.

 

Me, I'm anti-ban.

[Legate of Mineta]

This whole thread needs to be Proscribed!

[freespace2dotcom]

Legate, I know you've been intentionally avoiding this thread, but just so you know, you might want to keep an eye on that one.

 

(Beat me to the punch!)

[Albert]

Banned or not I do think that knowledge of the mastery magics should provide extra protection against it.

 

It should be easier to use your willpower or counter spell it if you know what you're dealing with. Same with gates.

 

Knowledge is power, what you do with it is up to the individual..

 

I got a very studious student that everyone loves for beign so charming and nice.. However all master spell skills available for the first year has been maxed out. The above reasoning was used for that.

 

I know some gate skills were picked up along the way but just a few theories I think, maybe some methods and spells/phemes aswell but at lvl 1...

 

Also... I had spells like Hypnosis.. which isn't really a spell I think it was an action? and not prohibited.. still it counted as hostile... anyway. While it's certainly evil I would think that people hypnotizing nad mindcontrollign people could make them do things for them. Secondly if you pick the bully or some other hostile action for them you don't get to pick the target, the target seems to be random?!?

 

How about the option to have the hypnotized target carry your books or do your homework? Or some other stupid thing that benefits the evil master.. Perhaps having a helper that carries books and does other things you don't want to do can reduce the evil masters stress by one or 2 without using the casters actions, like rest or recovery spells or other recreational activities.

 

Anyway I really do think that increased knowledge of mastery should provide extra resistance options or ease of resistance to mastery spells and perhaps make it easier to counter mastery spells put on friends during quests.

 

Im not sure if it's in game, I only encountered mastery attacks one, it involved an old lady in a tavern that wanted sometihng from the school. I broke out of her controll atempt by focusing on the music in the tavern and willpower I think it was..

I don't think my mastery skills were available to give a boost agaisnt that mastery attack, or maybe my skills were too low when that hapend, I don think I had picked up the basics though if not maxed out mastery lvls.

 

It's possible she was a powerful witch and it woudl have been beyond a first year student to do so, but it would have been fun to reverse the spell she cast and have her pay for my meal I see no problems with using mastery on someone that's already atempted to use mastery on you, they deserve a lesson in humility imo.

[Legate of Mineta]

Albert;

 

Fun and interesting points.

 

I believe we agree that Mastery should give some bonuses in defense of it (but not Gates.) However, if you want real protective magics, you'll need Negation or Glamour.

 

We love the idea of having someone carry around your books, we'll see what we can do.

 

As for Mastery attacks- these are extremely rare, especially in Mineta, as the practice of Mastery is (if caught)... execution or, at the most lenient, cloistering. It can happen from time to time, though, and that particular Event might be well served by having a special Exit for the...inquisitive.

 

Thanks for the thoughts!

[Albert]

Understanding what you are dealing with should make it easier and allow you to pull of even more spectacular negation and glamor defences against master.

 

If you know how it works and the theory and phemes then you will have a better idea on how to counter it efficiently, perhaps even in a more spectacular and beneficial way. Using negation or glamour

[Legate of Mineta]

Yep, we agree.

[BeautyPoo]

Understanding what you are dealing with should make it easier and allow you to pull of even more spectacular negation and glamor defences against master.

The word spectacular keep makes me replace it with "flashy" in my mind^o^!

Like some additional sparkle & fireworks that do none added to negation vs Mastery

[Albert]

The word spectacular keep makes me replace it with "flashy" in my mind^o^!

Like some additional sparkle & fireworks that do none added to negation vs Mastery

 

For example it could cause stress to the attacker... The attacker gets so shocked at how ineffective his attack is that he looses confidence and gets stressed by the graphic display of imminent defeat...

 

As in: You fire a very powerful spell at your enemy, one of the best you've been able to muster your whole life... The enemy yawns and easily deflects it grinning condersendingly at you...

 

You are so busted! From there on out your concentration and willpower goes down the drain and you start contemplating possible retreat options. adding stress, temporarily redusing willpower and concentration... Yet again at some point that should apply to non master based duels aswell.

 

Vitality, stress, willpower, confidence, concentration.. confidence could add a roll to avoid some of the effects.

[Fiaryn]

With regards to the bans, I sympathize most with Gates magic.

 

To me, Mastery is fundamentally and inherently evil. Violating the sanctity of another persons mind is incompatible with a functioning society. Humans can't come together, put down laws, and coexist with any degree of harmony when the very real threat of their very mind being taken from them is not actively curtailed.

 

Gates however is more of a case of just being dangerously powerful, like nuclear energy. It's not evil like Mastery is, but it requires extensive oversight to be used safely. Still if Ica-whatever achieved the feats she did without committing any atrocities, it stands to reason the school could be managed. I think Gates should require some kind of license and oversight, but I'm not sure a ban is warranted.

 

Edit: From an in character perspective, I had my guy pick up Gates because of none other than

Orso Orsi

He is a terrible influence, it's true. If he didn't want me mucking about in the forbidden arts he shouldn't have shown me how useful they can be in a tight spot.

[Aquillion]

With regards to the usefulness of Mastery, it would be interesting to see Mastery spells that add or remove moods; these could be useful both offensively and, more constructively, for removing negative moods from yourself or your friends or adding positive ones. Of course, Glamor can probably do that as well, but not as effectively... you could use Mastery to completely remove all of someone's moods or some such thing.

 

For a student, I'd imagine that using Gates to teleport around could drastically reduce your chance of being discovered when you need to be someplace you're not allowed... though, on the other hand, if you do get horribly unlucky you might be discovered mid-teleportation. Oops.

 

(I was a bit disappointed that the game doesn't allow things summoned with Gates to be represented as actual characters in-play the way students and teachers are; it would be nice if there was a category for "other" people and beings at the school who are neither teachers nor students but can still take actions. Gates could then bring those in, temporarily or permanently, as could events, adventures, etc. But I assume that's just an engine limitation.)

[Legate of Mineta]

Yglorba;

 

You are correct- it is an engine issue.

 

Mastery has been used to help correct psychological issues, too- it does have some wholesome uses.

[Aquillion]

Does Mastery allow reading minds? Or does that fall under another magic?

[Legate of Mineta]

It does indeed.

[isadorbg]

Now that's what I call Necromancy !

 

Well I mostly agree with you for Gates. I'll also add extra-dimensional plagues and modification of life into the mix wich might upset a few;

 

Afterall Gates has been banned numerous time. Who said it was always for the same reason ?

[freespace2dotcom]

At first I was like, "Who opened this thread? I don't remember it."

 

Then I read the opening and, yeah. lol.

[Svinik]

I missed the year and was getting kindof confused with the 20th Sept note, I'm old and slip a few days in the calendar every now and then but 2 weeks is outside my normal error range.

 

Hmm, has anyone ever done a list of the quasi-admitted gates users in the school? I don't recall anyone admitting to mastery (though Tabin is a shoo-in imho) but several have openly used gates (Orsi, Briardi, Durand, not sure about Oriabel, etc).

[Metis]

Durand? When did Durand use Gates?

[Svinik]

Err, wrong student, whups, I get them mixed up sometimes, durand is too dull to use gates. I was thinking about the boy with the amazingly dim plan to rescue Pamela, well, first get her kidnapped and then rescue her, the one and only Lambert.

 

Sigh, I was going to edit before anyone jumped in but wanted to finish the new threads first...

[Metis]

That...that would be interesting. Really interesting, in fact.

 

Also, depending on whether the team added it Aaran can be added to the Mastery list. And frankly I'd add Reitz to the Mastery list as well. I'm not sold on that amnesia spell being a Glamour.

[Metis]

Actually, it's Antonio's mother who knows mastery as I recall. Or maybe Aaran's? Maybe they're both in the same boat? I'm not sure, I'll look for the quote...

 

EDIT: Nope, it's Aaran's mother:

It's sort of background information, but Aaran's mother was supposedly a Mastery mage who concentrated on the healing uses of Mastery (though with the changes in this DLC, she likely would have had Sync as well, and she did have some blind spots). I'm not sure if he ever mentions that in year one, though, or if it's just background information that'll come up in later years.

 

Wait, does that mean I spoiled people? Hm!