Rule interpretation help

[Wits]

Me and Schwarzbart realized we have differing rule interpretations on two pretty important not-standard-hermetic-theory spells, so we thought we should ask what everyone else thinks.

 

1) Wizard's communion

 

Does the communion have to be cast separately by each magus before casting the spell it's supposed to affect? Or is it just that the magi "join their forces" before casting the intended spell, and only one casting roll is made? The former makes the spell somewhat less useful and makes it behave like all other vim spells, whereas the latter makes it more useful (and less of a hassle) but makes it deviate from standard rules.

 

Here's a relevant Atlas thread:

 

http://forum.atlas-games.com/viewtopic.php?p=84987

 

2) Aegis of the Hearth

 

Does the Aegis have to penetrate to affect things inside it? I.e. is the Aegis like all other spells with regard to penetration, or is it a special case? If it has to penetrate, then if someone casts the Aegis and just barely succeeds (penetration 0), then the aegis doesn't affect magic creatures with might over 1 at all, and they can come and go as they please. If it's a special case, penetration isn't applicable at all, and only the level of the aegis matters, meaning that if we have a level 25 aegis, nothing with might under 25 can enter the aegis.

 

Here are some relevant resources:

 

http://forum.atlas-g....php?f=4&t=7633

 

http://forum.atlas-g....php?f=4&t=7654

 

http://www.redcap.or...and_Penetration

[Schwarzbart]

1) My personal opinion on Wizard Communion is that each Mage have to roll if his Wizzard Communion spell works, if just one fails the spell dont works.

Without this you get to the situation where some mage can't cast this spell at all any more trough some penaltys but still give the full effect of this spell to the group and not even get 1 fatigue from failing the roll of a formulatic spell.

The spell actual take 2 round one for performing the Communion and a second to perform the spell that should be cast.

Wizard's communion works on Mercurian based rituals like the Aegis to give them higher penetration.

If the one who initated the Wizzard Communion botch the spell all practicants are affected by the botch and the increased botch die.

If a other botch he is just affected by the normal botch under this situation, the rest of the team just fail the spell.

When the bosted spell or the concentration roll is botched then everyone is again affected full by the botch.

 

2) Aegis have to penetrate because it reduce everyone who enter it no mather how high its might is by its level so if a might 50 Angel enter our Aegis he only works like he have might 25 and without penetration even god or the devil would be affected. Beside its a good reason for having Wizard Communion on all mages.

[Wits]

Do you think wizard's communion ONLY works on mercurian rituals? Do you have a source for that? In the spell's description, it doesn't mention rituals at all, but it does say that it doesn't work on spontaneous spells, so I think it would say if the communion didn't work on normal rituals.

[Schwarzbart]

No I just special mentioned it as I haved somewhere in my backhead that it dont' works on rituals but dont find the specific mention any more.

It was probably because of the momentary duration is not long enough to cover the duration of a ritual.

But in general Wizzard Communion is great in calm situations because formulatic spells just roll normal dice unless your under stress that means you dont care about the increased botch die.

Reading trough the rules of the muto Vim guidlines I even have to scratch my thought its takes 2 turns as it is actual just one but the one who casting the effected spell need to do a Int+Concentration roll vs 9 for casting both spells.

 

Edit: reading the errata

A Muto Vim spell, like any other Muto spell, can only change its target for as long as the Muto Vim spell is in effect. Thus, its duration should normally be at least as long as the spell that is its target. The spells below have a duration of Momentary, but versions with longer Durations can be invented as normal

I think we clearly need a different version of MuVi spells like Wizard Communion if the have to affect spells longer then Momentary duration.

Especial problematic is year duration as then both spells have to be rituals.

But in the case of Wizard Communion I'm also fine if we houserule that it just have to cover the complet casting duration as it clearly says it does not perfectly fit into the guidelines of Hermetic theory.

 

Edit2: Now I'm finaly confused as there 2 erratas for the same thing and both says something different.

I would go with the one of the older errata that only the duration of the casting have to be covered by MuVim spells!

What still means we need a different spell for rituals but normal Formulatic spells are covered with the spell we have.

(I have writen a mail to David Chart to get a answear on this)

[Wits]

Heh, yeah, that's goddamn complicated.

 

My interpretation would be to say that the standard rules you are talking about there do not count for wizard's communion. That spell just works differently, and the same version can be used on all spells etc.

 

Note that to have multiple versions wouldn't work with the intended purpose of the Mercurian Magic virtue, which grants Wizard's communion to the magus "automatically" to be used with ritual magic, but doesn't mention anything about a different duration.

[Schwarzbart]

For Mercurian Magic you have them allways at sun duration as you only get it for Ritual spells!

 

Edit: beside that they get a new Wizard's communion as soon they learn a higher level ritual and so they have the spell in different level anyway what is necesary if MuVi is not theyr highest Art combination.

[Wits]

Hm. Why would you ever invent the spell at anything other than moon duration, btw? It's the total level that counts, not the base level (see description).

[Schwarzbart]

But the duration is substracted from this. So if you have duration of Sun its -2 level what means a Wizzard Communion of lvl 20 with duration of sun only works like a momentary of lvl 10.

[Wits]

I don't think so - look at the end of the description, where it usually mentions the extra magnitudes. It just says "base effect".

 

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this, but I think we should let CJ decide, since it hinges on the base interpretative framework one chooses.

[Schwarzbart]

In my opinion it works like other spells guildlines with level+4 to cover up for the voice and Group

 

Edit: err moment did I do the calculation right? No!!!

Its just Level without mod as with Base 1 you get 5 what is resulting that you can have 1 extra mage and with Base 2 your 10 resulting in 2 extra mages and so on.

But as soon you increase Duration, Range or Target your base reduce and so the effect you get of the spell.

 

Mercurian Magic is right the thing why I think that it must be the casting duration that have to be covered with the duration of MuVi spells and the Quoted errata is wrong.

[Wits]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but I think you've got it completely confused now - the number of extra magi doesn't have anything to do with the spell's level, the level of the total wizard's connection must just be double the target spell's level for it to work. Beyond that, the level doesn' t matter, only the number of participating magi.

[Schwarzbart]

Its effective for all numbers used if you have Sun duration instead of Momentary your -2 Magnitudes for all effects.

Or if you use Touch instead of Voice your +1 Magnitude for all effects (even if this would means you can only use it with 1 extra person)

 

Beside one funny thing is that the reason why they say its non Hermetic is because it dont work on spontan magic. But the MuVim Guidline disallow MuVim magic general to be used on spontan magic acording to Hermetic Theory ^^.

[Wits]

And given the above, if it worked like you think, you'd need six wizards with level 25 wizard's communions (because base 5 + 4 magnitudes) to cast a level 15 spell (because the communion would be level 30 then).

[Schwarzbart]

For you example in casting a lvl 15 ritual you need only 2 mages with the Wizard communion of Sun duration at 25 as 2x(25-10)=2x15.

Even for a lvl 50 Ritual with people having it at lvl 25 and the Ritualist have it at 50 you only need 5 people to cast it. 4x(25-10)+(50-10)=2x50

Sure a lvl 15 Sun duration Wizard communion get you no where as its only be equal to a lvl 5 momentary.

 

Edit:

But a group having it at lvl 25 with sun duration you get to 4x(25-10)/2= a lvl 30 ritual what is not bad.

[Wits]

... And why wouldn't you need the group target that's specified in the guideline? Come now, Schwarzbart, that is completely silly. Ah, I'm letting others have the next go, I consider this settled.

[Schwarzbart]

Huh what are you talking about the only difference to momentary is the +2 for sun duration you need to do for ritual so you just have to substract 10 from the spell level to get its effect.

Or what did you don't get from 2 magnitude from Sun duration = 10 level?

[Wits]

What I mean was that the spell is at group target and voice range. Why aren't you adding magnitudes for those? And if you think it can be personal and individual, then why did they list those there? And why didn't they add magnitudes for them, but why do you think duration should be added? None of it makes any sense according to the standard guidelines.

[Schwarzbart]

Because they are already callculated in into the Base effect

Only when you have level / 2 or similiar base effects you cant go with the simple way of adding or substracting the magnitudes of your Duration changes to get the new effect.

But in this case we have a effect that increase straight with the level.

Anyway you want the more complicated way here you go:

Our effects are based on lvl 5 and a magnitude of this and our spell is Base +2 Voice +2 Group.

So this effect is level + 4 (ok I got it right at the first but messed up in my follow up thought as my follow up was thinking from the Base number instead of level )

[Wits]

Rrright. So the level 15 spell in our library is either base 3 (if momentary) or base 1 (if duration sun). Is this what you mean? So it's essentially useless in any case.

[Schwarzbart]

Yes its only works as spell for Formulatic spell and not ritual spells or circles.

Even if the use on formulatic spells might be questionable but at last for spell with range Arcane Connection its still nice to get a bether penetration as you can use them from your save covenant.

[Wits]

Yes but even if it's only for formulaic, you'd need 10 magi with the level 15 communion to cast a level 15 spell (because each magus contributes 3 base levels, and it has to total to 30).

 

I don't know why I'm continuing this. Argh. Stubborn gene go away.

[Schwarzbart]

Huh No its 5 per base level you get towards the 2x spell level you need and 1 extra mage that can join per base level, that didn't change.

Maybe its bether you get a good night sleep and look at this tomorrow again.

[Wits]

Ah that's what you meant with the 5 per base level Utter madness, I say!

[Schwarzbart]

Yes thats why I did go the simple way with just substracting the 10 from the spell level for Sun duration Wizzard's Communion as then you can use the guidlines exactly as writen with lvl 15 the lowest spell possible with Sun duration.

[Schwarzbart]

Just found the important info that Hermetic Wards have to penetrate in HoH:S 114

Since Hermetic wards must penetrate a being’s Magic Resistance to be effective, it is a good idea to note the caster’s Penetration Total in addition to the level of the spell.

Even with spells that are designed to affect mundane things, it is possible that the character could encounter a special type of target that can resist the effect.

I doubt that the Aegis is a exception from this as it then would be 3-4 times as powerfull as every circle spell.