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My familiar has a cooking of 1 The greengrocery(more than 1) skill and I think the Recipe(1) skill. I don't think it has the baking skill.

 

Maybe my familiar could work as a Sausechef for my character if I put in a few more skill points :) I'm not sure how hygenic a hawk is in the kitchen though.

 

Hummmm... How about a Hygene skill beyond the Perfume skill.... It could also add to social skills once you get it high enough.(Because you are more pleasant to be around)

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...I didn't even think about Familiars. Of course. That's another passive +5 to everything if you care to raise your Familiar's Bond/Cooking to 10. That'd take way too much effort though, because Familiar attributes are just...not good.

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Does that bonus work in Year 1? Or is it something for the future?

 

I'm not sure what we will be able to do with our Familiars in the future. The Lend inteligence etz can hel a little, also, their atributes do increase with bonuses awarded by skills.

 

Improved Familair Handling is fairly efficient. Still takes time though :)

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That bonus does work, although I don't know exactly in which situations it does. I do know, at least, that it works when you Match Wits, since giving your Familiar Bond and Wit 6 noticeably increases the success rate thereof if the PC only has Wit 10. Not that a PC should, but details.

 

The issue with Improved Familiar Handling it that it needs Zoology 5, and there's absolutely nothing else that can compete with it. Most other abilities that teach Familiar skills only raise Bond skills, and the best one that does (Calculate the Familiar Equation for +1 SS to all three Bond skills) deals unavoidable damage every time you use it.

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Someone can lost its mind by being affected by glammour yes. What i meant is that in opposition to Mastery you can't break somebody mind (or other mind manipulation) what you can do is creating the condition for someone to lose its mind like making taking profit of their phopia like i don't know making the room dark for someone who fear darkness.

The differences is that you'll need more than Glammour only to achieve the desirable effect (you need to know the target weakness and the talent to exploit them) and can be pretty much done with other way (kidnapping them and putting them in a dark room for month?). Thats why i often say glammour is a suble art, you more often than not only "influence" the target so he behave accordingly without having complete control like Mastery.

 

And yes I am aware of the "ethical" difference between the 2 situation i was merely using this as an exemple of what Glammour is capable of and the how it could potentially be destructive if somebody had mean intent.

 

The difference with Mastery is that someone affected with Glammour still keeps his mind integrity in the quote you gave me with the chicken exemple, the kids are still totally independent and react accordingly as any sane person who see hallucination they can still deduce its an illusion if they can or just ignore it if they have the will or even call professors.

With Mastery they would totally believe that human sized black chicken are normal and would not even question themselve silly you don't know that black chiken exist? ha !

 

Hmm, you take a very limited view of glamour in my view, given how broadly other pillars ar einterpreted and the amount of our perception of the world that is created in the brain I'd see the mastery/glamour difference more along the lines of:

 

Mastery: You can control someone's body and drive it to kill their child

Glamour. You can make someone think that their child is a chicken, that they are ravenously hungry, and they will kill, pluck, stuff, roast and eat their child.

 

Mastery: You can make someone think that they feel cold

Glamour: You can make someone feel cold.

 

Mastery: You can make someone cower in their room afraid of experiencing anything.

Glamour: You can amplify the processing of the senses so that every touch is excruciating, every sight blinding, every sound deafening, every smell overpowering, and they will cower in their room and never venture out lest they be crushed by the sensory input

 

Mastery: You can make someone blast their friend with magic

Glamour: you can make someone see their friend as their worst enemy who is in the process of winding up phemes of doom, make them feel angry and threatened (possibly, depending on interpretation, fear would however be readily creatable - think of the effect of subsonics shows), and they will blast their friend.

 

Mastery: You can make someone run off a cliff

Glamour: You can make someone see a cliff-edge as part of a meadow, feel a wall of fire burning across the meadow behind them, feel their skin burning and smell their burning flesh, and they will run off the cliff for you.

 

Glamour messes with the senses, the illusion that the brain builds to make sense of the world can be re-written at the whim of the glamour-casting mage meaning that in practice it can make almost anyone do almost anything - think of hypnosis, can it make you eat an onion raw? No, you'd never do that raw onions taste far too strong. But it can make you think that the onion is your favourite kind of apple and you will then happily eat it raw...

 

I suspect that while Negation absorbed a lot of Mastery spells, Glamour got its fair share too. Glamour is more indirect than Mastery, and given the likely lack of understanding of the mind in Mineta Mastery can probably do somethings much more easily than glamour, but a little subtlety and patience will let a glamour mage make pretty much anyone do almost anything mastery could imho.

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I suspect that while Negation absorbed a lot of Mastery spells, Glamour got its fair share too. Glamour is more indirect than Mastery, and given the likely lack of understanding of the mind in Mineta Mastery can probably do somethings much more easily than glamour, but a little subtlety and patience will let a glamour mage make pretty much anyone do almost anything mastery could imho.

 

Sure. In theory Glammour can do alot a thing that Mastery can do (far from everything too more on that later) but you underestimate the human mind and how different one can react to the same situtation which are the limits of Glammour. Limit that Mastery doesn't know of.

 

I'll take your exemple:

 

 

Mastery: You can control someone's body and drive it to kill their child

Glamour. You can make someone think that their child is a chicken, that they are ravenously hungry, and they will kill, pluck, stuff, roast and eat their child.

 

 

Sure it can works. But because someone believe his child is a chicken and is "death' hungry doesn't mean he will kill his child. Thats my point the difference between Glammour and Mastery.

 

Maybe he will kill the chicken or maybe not because it has a phobia of blood or because its vegetarian ? Or because he doesn't eat chcken ? Or maybe he will take the chicken and ask someone else to kill it ?

It just a few exemple that will make your plan fail.

 

Your created a reason for someone to do as you want doesn't mean he will take it.

 

 

Mastery: You can make someone think that they feel cold

Glamour: You can make someone feel cold.

 

 

Sure.

 

 

Mastery: You can make someone cower in their room afraid of experiencing anything.

Glamour: You can amplify the processing of the senses so that every touch is excruciating, every sight blinding, every sound deafening, every smell overpowering, and they will cower in their room and never venture out lest they be crushed by the sensory input

 

 

 

Sure. Still doesn't mean that the one glamoured will react like the mastered one. They can do alot of unexpected things: shout like crazy, becoming completly crazy or even not react at all.

 

 

Mastery: You can make someone blast their friend with magic

Glamour: you can make someone see their friend as their worst enemy who is in the process of winding up phemes of doom, make them feel angry and threatened (possibly, depending on interpretation, fear would however be readily creatable - think of the effect of subsonics shows), and they will blast their friend.

 

 

Nope. here I am in total disagreement. Sure in many cases they will react accordingly but they can just chose to run or even try just to defend themselves or incapacitate their foe. They can do a lot of things that doesn't hurt their friend.

 

 

Glamour messes with the senses, the illusion that the brain builds to make sense of the world can be re-written at the whim of the glamour-casting mage meaning that in practice it can make almost anyone do almost anything - think of hypnosis, can it make you eat an onion raw? No, you'd never do that raw onions taste far too strong. But it can make you think that the onion is your favourite kind of apple and you will then happily eat it raw...

 

 

 

 

Yes but you forget the problem with Glammour. you can make someone believe he is in a certain situation and even feel the feelings you desire but you can't control their actions at all.

 

And that's why Glammour can't do almost anything mastery could and not the opposite. ;)

 

See for all your exemple to work, a Glammour mage need to have a perfect knowldege of the target weakness (so he reacts like you want like liking chicken and not afraid of killing animal or react aggressively if threatened for the friend exemple). Wait for the ideal situation to comes (the child and the friend needs to be close in the exemple provided), creates a believable illusion so they don't understand that something is fishy (arguably the most difficult especially against a mage) and even then they are still a "chaos factor" and the target might still do something not expected.

 

Furthermore all of this require far more Glammour skill, non magic skill and works than Mastery. (time to know how to make the target behave, imagine the illusion, creates to illusion, adapt to the unexpected etc..)

A year 1 Mastery mages can do all of this as long as he took control of someone.

 

So no Glammour can't do almost nothing Mastery can do as it needs more than simple Glammour skills to achieve similar results and need far more Glammour skill to achieve year 1 level of Mastery. (those kind of sophisticated illusion definitely seems beyond year 1 level.)

 

A mastery mages can make someone is slave for life. While I believe it's possible in theory for Glammour. The prohibitive work and skill needed makes it for me virtually impossible.

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It's the wielder of magic or even the person making a decision or taking a normal action that makes things good or bad or sometimes both depending on the views of the people judging.

 

The exception would be Gates because it involves taking a risk that might not be right towards other people even if the intention is the best in the world. Though, if it pretty much is the only thign that can save the world or a lot of people who should be able to judge.

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It's the wielder of magic or even the person making a decision or taking a normal action that makes things good or bad or sometimes both depending on the views of the people judging.

 

Yeah ?? not sure what the relation with my debate with svinik ??

 

but I agree with you and is the person who choose to learn/use Mastery or Gates that makes him bad because he knows they're illegal... Not the magic itself. :rolleyes:

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but I agree with you and is the person who choose to learn/use Mastery or Gates that makes him bad because you know they're illegal... Not the magic itself. :rolleyes:

I know this is due to gameplay and story segregation, but I have to say that statement is ironically hilarious given that one of the issues in Y1 is that illegal magic is actually very difficult to avoid unless you completely abstain from any action/ability that teaches random skills. You don't really have a reasonable "choice", unless you count your ability to save/load ;).

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Sure but then you are not intentionally trying to learn and use Gates/Mastery and like you said it's a gameplay limitation more than a Rp issues.

 

I was merely teasing albert. because while I agree that the fault is on the user and not the magics (yes even for Gates) he forgets that little details... :rolleyes:

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mmh new picture free, finally gone rogue heh ?

 

Too late we know what you look like, surrender and you maybe granted a swift death !

 

Altough if you want to live. I can introduce you with some hum... "freedom fighters". We support the return of the great dragon chased away by "fools and fake gods". Of course Mastery and Gates will be allowed back... for the worthy (as other pillars) and the unfit may suffer from some infringement on their old rights and have more deaths but it's a small price to pay for the "greater good". ;)

All hail me.

 

Viva la revolution. B)

 

Hum... surrender criminal !!!

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kinda sorta. My new avatar is a qc code holding data on my previous signature so that I can make a new signature.

 

It's something I found in another forum I lurk in and thought it highly appropriate for BCS. Though it may take patience and/or attention to detail to discover what's wrong with the image....

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You do realize that somewhere I made a post where I was surprised your avatar was actually an Aranaz male, and noted that it looked distinctly less like a vampire? I think a few people are going to ask a few questions before they realize the obvious.

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Yes but you forget the problem with Glammour. you can make someone believe he is in a certain situation and even feel the feelings you desire but you can't control their actions at all.

 

And that's why Glammour can't do almost anything mastery could and not the opposite. ;)

 

See for all your exemple to work, a Glammour mage need to have a perfect knowldege of the target weakness (so he reacts like you want like liking chicken and not afraid of killing animal or react aggressively if threatened for the friend exemple). Wait for the ideal situation to comes (the child and the friend needs to be close in the exemple provided), creates a believable illusion so they don't understand that something is fishy (arguably the most difficult especially against a mage) and even then they are still a "chaos factor" and the target might still do something not expected.

 

Furthermore all of this require far more Glammour skill, non magic skill and works than Mastery. (time to know how to make the target behave, imagine the illusion, creates to illusion, adapt to the unexpected etc..)

A year 1 Mastery mages can do all of this as long as he took control of someone.

 

So no Glammour can't do almost nothing Mastery can do as it needs more than simple Glammour skills to achieve similar results and need far more Glammour skill to achieve year 1 level of Mastery. (those kind of sophisticated illusion definitely seems beyond year 1 level.)

 

A mastery mages can make someone is slave for life. While I believe it's possible in theory for Glammour. The prohibitive work and skill needed makes it for me virtually impossible.

 

Actually if you control someone's perceptions then you do heavily influence their actions giving you a significant measure of control. Is the control perfect? No, but its all about shifting the odds in your favour. Mastery is hardly perfect either, making someone do something totally opposed to their will is very difficult - of course the combination of the two, glamour to reduce prohibitions / increase desire and then mastery to shape the end choice - that's the easy-win combo that will overcome even the most strong will.

 

Perfect knowledge of the target? Not at all, just a reasonable knowledge, indeed for some glamours the knowledge needed could be very basic as people many will react automatically to certain stimuli and some stimuli will affect almost everyone in the same way. The skill in making glamours effective is in making them reasonable for the situation, and sufficiently influential in nature, to give a high probability of achieving your goal - it may require a little more wit and subtlety than mastery but casting mastery spells without wit or subtlety will leave a trail of angry victims once the spells wear off which is not conducive to good health.

 

Long term I see mastery as vastly less effective than glamour, the stronger the impulse being over-turned by mastery, the harder the spell or the shorter it's duration - glamour may be less certain, but as the decision is taken by the victim in response to the glamour-induced stimulus it won't wear-off like a mastery-induced impulse. I'd also expect Glamour, even at Yr 1, to be capable of having a much stronger effect than a Yr 1 mastery spell, the relative weakness of a yr 1 mastery spell should limit its potential effects quite significantly, whereas the whole point of glamour is about making the person want to do something / refrain from doing something of their own will giving them almost unlimited effect, so once you've got them to make the desired decision the impulse to continue is internally-generated and needs no external reinforcement.

 

To consider what you can do with even basic glamours consider the potency of stage-magic, religion, hypnosis, stage shows and all sorts of chicanery and misdirection - people can be remarkably easy to manipulate via their senses, heck something as trivial as the smell of baking bread can increase the price they will pay for a house by a months wage or more while fire will get almost anyone moving either to flee or to fight it.

 

And of course, glamours are legal and relatively easy to get hold of, whereas mastery is illegal and hard to acquire (except via casual discussions with the sphinx, reading in the library of longshade, scanning the tapestry room, etc, etc, etc).

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All the casual sources for mastery and gates seems staggering.

 

I would like it to be changing yet possible to advance in the forbidden arts, rather than something that happens on accident. Then again, once you got the basic you don't seem to have much of a problem persuing them. There is no teacher to give skill maximum boosts in it however.

 

Illaro could probably make for a nice Gates teacher, but I don't think he seems to be doing any teaching. I can't really think of a "safe" mastery teacher, maybe that guy from the keystone quest... He does seem a little crazy however. However he does seem to know Gates aswell.

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The Book of Deep Shadows could probably teach you a thing or two, if you could read it. And I imagine that being...what it is, Diavesque could probably also tell you a thing or two about Mastery.

 

As for an actual teacher, though? You might want to pester free about the highly illegal chocolate cakes, if I remember...some page and some page of the Q&A topic correctly.

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hehe, ah, the Chocolate Cake Club.

 

If I ever do finish it, it will be in Y2, which is for the best, no doubt. It's a little hammy though so I may not... My Ren and Stimpy reference should prove the point along, although it *is* a good mind control Mastery reference. Even if I never finish the adventure I'm going to ask to have this put in.

 

 

Happy

 

Rare pheme (illegal)

 

The Happy pheme, and its history, is an unusual one.

 

In the era not too long before the latest proscription was handed down upon Mastery, and the practice was frowned upon whenever it was seen, many Mastery wizards started searching for a way to make their art more palatable to everyone else. Their solution was, of course, to make it more discreet. The Happy pheme was discovered shortly thereafter, and Masterers everywhere rejoiced. After all, what better way is there to hide the typical dull actions of a Mastered individual than to make them appear happy?

 

Wizards who know of such things today quietly note that the existance of this pheme ironically only hastened the inevitable ban's arrival.

 

-----------------------------------------------

Renaldo's Hat of Happiness.

 

Legendary spell (illegal)

 

Happy

Happy

Joy

Joy

 

This spell was developed collectively by the students of College Kasus., Just before the ban on Mastery. It will give its target the 'Bon Vivant' emotion, as well as +5 to famous songs for its duration of 3 days. After the duration though, expect a heavy random increase to stress (5-10) as well as a 50% chance of being afflicted with a negative emotion that needs to be rested away. Note that repeated castings do not stack but can reset the duration for no additional penalty.

 

With the official date of proscription nearing, and the fates of all of Kasus set in stone, the regent of Kasus was in a state of perpetual anger and frustration, having fought ferociously in vain for his College's very existence and it's student's futures for several years. Wanting to go out on a high note, the students of Kazus schemed and plotted. First they stole their regent's hat, and then all of them ritually enchanted it with this spell as well as one to prevent it's removal, and finally returned it to its rightful resting place.

 

What happened afterward is the stuff of mythic legend at the Academagia. The only thing is, nobody knows where the name Renaldo came from, as it certainly wasn't the Regent's.

 

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Actually if you control someone's perceptions then you do heavily influence their actions giving you a significant measure of control. Is the control perfect? No, but its all about shifting the odds in your favour. Mastery is hardly perfect either, making someone do something totally opposed to their will is very difficult - of course the combination of the two, glamour to reduce prohibitions / increase desire and then mastery to shape the end choice - that's the easy-win combo that will overcome even the most strong will.

 

Mmh i never thought of Glammour/Mastery combo before but yeah It can works I guess. For the rest yes you can influence someone with Glammour but because you can not control him makes the whole difference.

 

 

 

Perfect knowledge of the target? Not at all, just a reasonable knowledge, indeed for some glamours the knowledge needed could be very basic as people many will react automatically to certain stimuli and some stimuli will affect almost everyone in the same way. The skill in making glamours effective is in making them reasonable for the situation, and sufficiently influential in nature, to give a high probability of achieving your goal - it may require a little more wit and subtlety than mastery but casting mastery spells without wit or subtlety will leave a trail of angry victims once the spells wear off which is not conducive to good health.

 

See the problem here is that while I agree that same stimuli will make people react mostly the same way. The problem is that because you don't control their action makes it more limited than Mastery.

 

that's the whole point of influence vs control.

 

you want someone to react with hostility to everyone ? that's very easy with glammour but if you want him to kill a specific person then it become considerably harder because you want someone to make a very specific action to a very specific moment, location etc. And depending on his personality the difficulty can increase/decrease.

 

There is another difficulty of Glammour we forgets wich is also due to the free will problem.

 

It's easy to notice a person hallucinating. Be it the random event Albert gave in this page, the cake exemple i have given and even your exemples it is very easy for someone unaffected to notice that the person is not reacting normaly and even victim of hallucination and make the link with Glammour. And even break the spell after because again you only fooling someone and he still control of it's action if someoene manage to make him realize he is hallucinating the glammour fail completly.

 

- what are you doing with this wand philip ? what is this spell ? ( Huh ? I am not philip ? I am your best friend Rui. and I have no wand)

- Stop this. I will defend myself if I have to. "take his wand in hand" (what's wrong with you ? you are not normal !)

- that's it I am fed up of you ! "Begin to cast with its wand" (Dude! I am your friend ! remember when we did x..)

- How you know of this ?! "stop casting" (because I am Rui you are under a glammour spell..)

 

And blabla you see my point. it's rather easy to realize someone is under Glammour because he will probably react crazily especially if you want to make him do something big despite himself. Wich not only make it more difficult to achieve to wanted result but also finding the culprit is more easy.

 

That's what you get when you can only influence (Glammour) in the end you can't control the actions and if you fool him to try to do something. Someone will notice because of differences between the real world and the illusion.

but when you can control (Mastery). The moment you have taken control of the mind you can make him do what you want and more importantly make him do complex action (take those fluid, make a bomb of it, pose the bomb in the legate office come only in the night set the bomb to explode the morning, write a manifesto saying how you hated the academagia..., take the zeppelin of 6.am and disapear) even if the mastered doesn't know how to do them as long as you do (the reverse works too).

 

 

To consider what you can do with even basic glamours consider the potency of stage-magic, religion, hypnosis, stage shows and all sorts of chicanery and misdirection - people can be remarkably easy to manipulate via their senses, heck something as trivial as the smell of baking bread can increase the price they will pay for a house by a months wage or more while fire will get almost anyone moving either to flee or to fight it.

And of course, glamours are legal and relatively easy to get hold of, whereas mastery is illegal and hard to acquire (except via casual discussions with the sphinx, reading in the library of longshade, scanning the tapestry room, etc, etc, etc).

 

 

 

 

Ok with this I can agree. With time and the proper non glammour skill and if the target is "weak" enough you can influence him to do something of its own will that he would have refused prior. But that will still take time and dedication.

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Whether Mastery or Glamour is used if the victim is are acting crazy it will be potentially recognised (this is the Academagica, weird is normal). Having just seen a few RE's and adventure stages Glamour appears to include directly manipulating feelings/emotions, so the line between it and mastery is even more blurry that I thought.

 

It's a bit academic really, pillars are so broad (and I suspect artificial) that the decision of which pillar to use is more a function of the situation and caster than the properties of any pillar - for any given situation there are probably several different pillars that could potentially be used to get the desired outcome if the student is reasonably skilled and creative so I'd expect that most things that could be done with Mastery could be done in one way or another by a different pillar except for the "hard-core" mental re-wiring type stuff.

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