Playing with/ Thoughts on the Game in General.

[Metis]

...Of course. Make the professor invisible. How did I not think of that.

[isadorbg]

and just for the people reading here is the description after the success roll:

 

"The professor is almost at the door. Time is of the essence. You rush outsiden your wand in hand, and hurriedly build your spell. You fire it off at Philippe. He blinks ans looks around with a blank expression on his face. He doesn't seem to know where he is, and after a minute, he wanders off."

[isadorbg]

its not because it look like mastery that its like Mastery.

 

That was my point when talking about Glammour it can give a result pretty close to what Mastery is capable of (well expect the mind manipulation) but the method is completly different and you have to be pretty smart because its not as easy.

[Albert]

There is also the Glamour you use in Villumaes student adventure to confuse the minds of the studnets who saw the Black chicken. It seems to work kind of like the flasher in "Men in Black". Which is also a Glamour spells that wreack havock on the students sanity.

 

The Science girl with the testbottle that likes to blow thigns up and thinks she's a great scientist.

 

So, Glamours arn't limited to visual illusions, they can also wreck havock on peoples mental sanity. Thoguh there is no actual Glamour control spell as far as I know.. But it can mess a persons sanity and memory up pretty badly.

If you don't glamour them they will try to extort you!

[isadorbg]

its easy to hurt people sanity when you can mess with their senses and feeling and that what Glammour does.

 

All the pillars can be used for mean intention thats not the debate. But Glammour is completly unable to do what Mastery does: messing directly with someone's mind. At best you can influence them with Glammour wich is already very powerfull if you know what you're doing but people still keep their identity and "sanity" if they chose not to freak out.

 

For the exemple you've stated if you could provide a link or the text, it would be appreciated.

 

edit: just to say I rarely play student adventure they are too long and frustrating to my taste but i guess I'll have to play all of them for this "sigh".

 

By Villumaes you mean Vuillaume i presume ?

[Metis]

Assuring your friends that everything can be explained if they would just step over here so you could tell them the exact nature of the chicken, you give them a face full of "Treachery of the Senses."

 

“My eyes are playing tricks on me?” states Magalda Quaranta.

 

“I must need glasses. How else do I explain seeing a human-sized chicken?” asserts Hector Per Vittoria.

 

“Chicken? What chicken?” ponders Kurt Henning.

 

Sneak attacks: when you absolutely have to dig yourself out of your own grave.

I'm really starting to doubt Glamour now, BTW.

[isadorbg]

yeah so? messing with senses, illusion heck "Treachery of the Senses." that what i keep saying ? or really i my communication skill are so bad ?

[Metis]

I'm not questioning whether the Mastery-like effects are actually Glamours. I'm questioning how ethical Glamour is to use.

[isadorbg]

Again all pillars can be used for mean intention. Is it really that worse to make someone insane by completly disrupting his senses (making believe I don't know that he is in another dimension "A walk along the lake" much?) or simply burning him with incantation ? or remonving his arms and legs for fun with Revision ? or making his life miserable with permanent unluck with Astrology... I could go on like this but you see my point.

 

The thing is that you can't make someone insane (thats Mastery) with Glammour but someone can become insane with Glammour. Thats a world of difference

 

edit: to quote myself:

 

 

its easy to hurt people sanity when you can mess with their senses and feeling and that what Glammour does.

All the pillars can be used for mean intention thats not the debate. But Glammour is completly unable to do what Mastery does: messing directly with someone's mind. At best you can influence them with Glammour wich is already very powerfull if you know what you're doing but people still keep their identity and "sanity" if they chose not to freak out.

 

 

[Metis]

The thing is that you can't make someone insane (thats Mastery) with Glammour but someone can become insane with Glammour. Thats a world of difference

Ah, exact wording and multiple interpretations making that statement either factual or a contradiction. Really makes all those years spend studying language worthwhile (not). Was that bold part supposed to mean that someone can be pushed over the edge with merely being subjected to Glamours (in which case how is that different from Mastery's more direct method?), or supposed to mean that a mage can become unhealthily obsessed with Glamours (which...eh, I don't know).

 

As for the difference between what Ahriman shows you and what the PC does to his/her classmates - the former is merely a show. The latter distorts truth in favor of someone who holds the power to do so, and not incidentally, ripe for potential abuse.

[isadorbg]

Ah, exact wording and multiple interpretations making that statement either factual or a contradiction. Really makes all those years spend studying language worthwhile (not). Was that bold part supposed to mean that someone can be pushed over the edge with merely being subjected to Glamours (in which case how is that different from Mastery's more direct method?), or supposed to mean that a mage can become unhealthily obsessed with Glamours (which...eh, I don't know).

 

Someone can lost its mind by being affected by glammour yes. What i meant is that in opposition to Mastery you can't break somebody mind (or other mind manipulation) what you can do is creating the condition for someone to lose its mind like making taking profit of their phopia like i don't know making the room dark for someone who fear darkness.

The differences is that you'll need more than Glammour only to achieve the desirable effect (you need to know the target weakness and the talent to exploit them) and can be pretty much done with other way (kidnapping them and putting them in a dark room for month?). Thats why i often say glammour is a suble art, you more often than not only "influence" the target so he behave accordingly without having complete control like Mastery.

 

And yes I am aware of the "ethical" difference between the 2 situation i was merely using this as an exemple of what Glammour is capable of and the how it could potentially be destructive if somebody had mean intent.

 

The difference with Mastery is that someone affected with Glammour still keeps his mind integrity in the quote you gave me with the chicken exemple, the kids are still totally independent and react accordingly as any sane person who see hallucination they can still deduce its an illusion if they can or just ignore it if they have the will or even call professors.

With Mastery they would totally believe that human sized black chicken are normal and would not even question themselve silly you don't know that black chiken exist? ha !

[isadorbg]

Okay since your all having trouble to difference Glammour and Mastery, I thought of an exemple to illustrate a little more the differences:

 

First like I already said (again and again ! ) Glammour is about messing with someone senses while Mastery is about messing with someone mind. So with that said I can see how we can easily confuse the two of them especially if they are used for the same goal.

 

However if in simple tasks Glammour and Mastery seems very close (fooling someone to see an illusion and making him believe it exist doesn't seem that far with quick regard) the more harder the "prank" the more obvious the differences appear. Why? because of the free will problem.

 

Here's the exemple:

 

You want someone to climb a tower and jump of the cliff. Simple.

 

- Mastery:

 

You master someone to climb the tower and jump. Easy.

 

- Glammour

 

not we are talking ! so first you'll have to create an incencitive to make someone climb the tower and jump (because he has still control his mind remember?). So let's say that person has a pathological fondness for cake (wich is something you'll need to know) so you mess with his senses to make him believe that this tower has on top of it, the best cake in the world. Not easy because you'll still need quite the non glammour skill to convince him he really wants that cake and yet you are not sure he will climb that tower (human minds tends to be tricky sometime) if you manage to fool him that he really has to taste this cake then you pretty much won, just place the cake so he fall from the tower.

 

Convincing enough ?

[Albert]

All pillars can be used for good or ill. Gate's is put appart by that chaos factor that's causing unintended sideeffects every now and then.

 

Mastery can be used for good, or for defence, or for saving people from a man eating dragon, or remove their pain, or give them strength, or heal. But it can also be used to hurt or enslave people.

 

Incantation can be used to heal people or wash away villages and cities of you're skilled enough and nasty(angry) enough to do something like that.

It can be used for simple tasks, some healing spells even if they are few, watering a field of crops or a flower, or killing a person with a really nasty Wheel of fire spell.

 

Glamours can make things beautiful, it can make sad people feel better, or it could terrify people with terrible nightmares from the darkest corners of their minds. Or befuddle their minds completely.

 

The list goes on.

 

I don't think it's the skills or abilities themselves but rather how, and why you use them.

 

Gates gets the short straw due to the fact that it can go badly even if you got the best of intentions. Thoguh, sometimes people create massive accidents with other magics aswell, in those cases it's usualy people trying to do something that's slightly beyond their understanding to control properly.

 

But clearly, the fact that there are mad people and others that can use Gates safely and in a controlled way suggests that it's possible. We just don't know why. Even if I'm sure different people got different theories.

 

I think it's always the user that's the problem, not the magic pillar or knowledge itself.

 

Mastery also got demonised because the Dragons loved to playaround with it. Also, it's quite understandable that noone likes the idea of Mastery or Syncronisity abilities that invades your mind and all your most private of secrets. Your last refuge.

[Metis]

Yup, although I have to admit the fact that your example is ironically hilarious. Death by trick cake? No wonder Professor Vickery recommended taking up Cooking.

[Albert]

Okay since your all having trouble to difference Glammour and Mastery, I thought of an exemple to illustrate a little more the differences:

 

First like I already said (again and again ! ) Glammour is about messing with someone senses while Mastery is about messing with someone mind. So with that said I can see how we can easily confuse the two of them especially if they are used for the same goal.

 

However if in simple tasks Glammour and Mastery seems very close (fooling someone to see an illusion and making him believe it exist doesn't seem that far with quick regard) the more harder the "prank" the more obvious the differences appear. Why? because of the free will problem.

 

Here's the exemple:

 

You want someone to climb a tower and jump of the cliff. Simple.

 

- Mastery:

 

You master someone to climb the tower and jump. Easy.

 

- Glammour

 

not we are talking ! so first you'll have to create an incencitive to make someone climb the tower and jump (because he has still control his mind remember?). So let's say that person has a pathological fondness for cake (wich is something you'll need to know) so you mess with his senses to make him believe that this tower has on top of it, the best cake in the world. Not easy because you'll still need quite the non glammour skill to convince him he really wants that cake and yet you are not sure he will climb that tower (human minds tends to be tricky sometime) if you manage to fool him that he really has to taste this cake then you pretty much won, just place the cake so he fall from the tower.

 

Convincing enough ?

The problem from a moral standpoint is what it does to this other person who's defenceless unless he has enough skill to resist the Mastery or Glamour attempts and see through them. Both would be possible.

Does it really matter if you pull the trigger or tell someone else to do it for you? That's pretty much what the argument commes down to.

The damage is done all the same. You make it happen, one way or another. I wouldn't call either more moral than the other. The victim had no choice.

[Albert]

Yup, although I have to admit the fact that your example is ironically hilarious. Death by trick cake? No wonder Professor Vickery recommended taking up Cooking.

I think my Last character has a Cookign parrent skill of 16 or something like that. I don't know if I'll get a chance to use it that much though. Maybe we will have more crafting options in year 2

[isadorbg]

no because in the last exemple even fooled the person can still choose not to climb and taste the cake. The Mastery one have no choice.

 

I agree with you that all magic can be used for ill but Mastery and Gates have fatal flaws in them that put them logically aside:

 

Even without the chaos factor, Gates is very dangerous, a gate mage can open portal to other dimensions that if left unchecked can let loose on the world army of aliens. They can summons armies for their own benefit and also lose control of them. And those creature can bring with them deadly plagues that can kill thousand and mages and doctor are powerless in regard of these alien and often magical disease. I won't be surprised if the fist ban of Gates was due of a deadly plague brought with it that kill million of people ala black plague.

 

Then you add the chaos factor which is the overkill. With it even a 12 years kid can blow up an island or summon dragons or army of undead.

 

Mastery problem has nothing to do with dragon and everything to do with what sick things you can do with it.

A Master can make someone is all willing slave for the rest of its life something that glammour will never be capable of and if it was possible the difficulty to make it with glammour will not be worth the trouble.

With Mastery you can torture someone that no other magic will ever be capable of. Physical pain is something but thats kid plays compared to mental pain.

Mixed with other magic like Sync, Glammour or Gates it can do even more damages than those magic could have done alone (puppet alien army anyone?).

[Metis]

I don't think it's the skills or abilities themselves but rather how, and why you use them.

Do they have to be? >99% of the mages we deal with are human, it's a decent idea to account for things that may not be inherent to magic itself, but to the humans that use it.

 

I think my Last character has a Cookign parrent skill of 16 or something like that. I don't know if I'll get a chance to use it that much though. Maybe we will have more crafting options in year 2

I hope so. Being able to cook is a good skill to have when you're living in a dorm, especially seeing as how the cooks on staff are, well, see Vrenelle Bonvin's adventure. BTW, bonus points if you're in a Clique with both Girars and Asmita - hot damn could you get a sky-high Cooking skill. Lemme do some math, actually, have to live up to Pi-face's reputation somehow...

 

EDIT: Yikes. With those two in a Clique and every permanent ability the wiki lists you'll get Baking 12, Greengrocery/Recipes 16, and Cooking 18. You can go even higher, too - Roots 11 for +1 Greengrocery max, Greengrocery 11 for +1 Random Cooking max (get +1 Recipes Max with that), and Research Baking for +1 Baking max. Baking 13, Greengrocery/Recipes 17, and a natural Baking 19. Without any temporary buffs or items. Only problem is that Girars is in Morvidus and Asmita in Vernin - college rivals, so that'll probably either fall apart or take too much effort to maintain in Y2.

 

Still, yikes. I don't know if you can get any other parent skill higher than that without temporary buffs/items. BTW, if I'm reading the mod tools correctly Recipes 8 unlocks a catalogue that sells two items - the Baking Spoon (Enchanted) and the Self-Mixing Mixing Bowl - which should take up a "Spoon" and "Container" slot respectively. Both cost a pretty 570 Pims, but you'll get +5 Baking and +1 Cooking, for a final tally of Baking 18, Greengrocery/Recipes 17 and Cooking 24, if I counted everything correctly. That's...that's something.

 

Also, quotes are messed up. I think there's something wrong with the forum or something...

[Albert]

Wow, I need those tools!

 

I guess I'll get them in Year 2, or since the student is a Vernin student with enchanting skills and some crafting skills I could possibly create my own enchanted kitchentools

 

Perhaps we need a new Research skill that allows us to look for crafting recipes, enchantments and spells and other things.

 

First you pich the "Omni-Research" ability, then you narrow down the area of research by parrent skill.

Then you narrow it down, to spells, tools/equipment, recipes, lore, skills.

Then either random or perhaps even more precise options. Perhaps your Research skill at that point could determine what will be found in your search and then you can pick an entry on that list to study. Your Library knowledge and filing skill should be able to provide you with a list. Might not be possible with the Y2 engine though?

 

Meaning you could learn everything you need to know about enchanted baking spoons, Bowl's etz. Just make your pick.

 

It must be in the library somewhere, if not there should be a reference that could make an adventure available.

[Schwarzbart]

Metis my current character have Negation Methodes 21 and I'm sure I didn't hit the possible max.

skill 11 Shieldwright +1 Protective Mindset +1 Villaume's Methodology Over Theory +2 items: Magic Shield Device +4 The Wand of Ahriman's Mission +2

(I didn't even try to get high in this skill and I will get the True Holly Negation Wand for a other +1 soon)

[Metis]

Negation Methods is a subskill, though. Cooking is a parent skill and increasing that means increasing at least 3 of it's subskills (Cooking only has 3, though). Now if only there was a decent place to learn the cooking subskills...

[Schwarzbart]

Then have a look here, I got to Revision 25 in one of my older play trough without any temporary buff.

http://academagia.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=2328#entry21741

Oh and if I change the equipment around I get to Negation 20 with what my current char have and with 4 skill training even to 21.

[Metis]

If there was an imagine there once it's now gone because I "see" nothing.

 

BTW, another reason why Cooking 24 is more awesome is because, for one, you only need two items. For another, they require (if I read the mod tools correctly) really obscure equipment slots, so they don't exclude other awesome equipment (like the Revision 25 set-up, I imagine). How often have you had a character that walked around with a spoon and container?

[Schwarzbart]

Huh? Spoon and container as item type then you most likely can't equip them at all because there is no item slot, similar to the 2 items I reported today as bug.

[Metis]

It's entirely possible I misread the modtools, but the abilities of the items have a duration of 0. Generally, that means they're active so long as they're equipped. No, the description of the items does not clarify anything.