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Power of Revision compared to Enchant and other magic


Schwarzbart
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Because I absolute hate it when people go on and start discusions in the suggestion or question thread I decided to put this one out of the Suggestion thread and put it here so we can have a discussion without making the Legate to miss some Suggestions or questions !!!!

(It already happened a vew times to me that the Legate missed questions and suggestions thanks to unnecesary postings that add nothing to the posted suggestion or questions and are also no qestions or suggestions, that why I'm kind of pissed.)

 

can definately see Revision as a very good Artificer skill, it surprises me that they actually assigned Revision to Vernins "Rival" college. Seeing as it's often used among artificers. Revision doesn't seem very animal focused, outside of the healing properties when you find a hurt Crow that could need a healing touch.

 

It makes sense that the Library of Manetele or whatever it was called is Heavy on revision and forging seeing as it is an Artificer library. Revision is very useful for improving items, mending sails in a pinch, augmenting stuff with minimal effort and doing thigns that are very Artificing crafting oriented, especially when you need a Quick fix. Like House Grounders, making statues and stuff, which is very much artificing and the Creation of fine arts.

 

 

Enchantment and Revision would have made perfect sense for Vernin imo. I could easily have seen those two colleges being rivals, because they both would try to vye for the title of "home of Revision", one more artificng based and one more healing/nature based. Both wouldofcourse interest me, but those are my thoughts on the subject.

 

On the other hand Icould see Vernin preferign longer laastign creating rather than Revision that might revert eventualy. I never got the time span for how logn it would take those revisions torevert. Will the Statues comissioned from house Groudners revert after a while, or will they retain their looks since Revision was merely used to remove rock from the right places? Or did the reshape the rock in such a way that it will revert back?

 

I find Revision to be cool in it's very useful Daily Life applications. You need a cup, you create a cup, you need a dinner table, you create a dinner table. You need a baquet hall, then you create a banquet hall.

If you need lightign for the occasion I guess you could revise a suitable light source, either a Candle or an appropriate object to enchant maybe? Would revised object be of high enough quality to hold an enchantment? Would the revision magic take up some of the objects magic potential?

 

The Battle mace figurines eventually became too heavily Revised if you tried to use Revision to fix their colour. I could see Certain limitaions to the Quality of Revised items as a limiting factor and reason for more traditional Crafts like Forging and Woodcarving that seems to be favored when artificing around the Vernin enchanters.

 

Making Revision more like massproduction of plastic/wooden forks for a picknick while Vernin would forge them and enchant them to enhance the taste of the food, and temporarily increase the users etiquet skills(to reduce the amount of bad table manners at their dinner partys)..

Compared to Enchant Revision is the field construction while Enchant is for lasting products. So if you need a bridge over a river where your army can march over you use Revison because its even a advance if it is gone after you crosed the river in diametral oposit is Enchant where you first let build a bridge using Carpentery or Architecture and then strength it with enchanting against the hazzards of the nature to have a lasting way over the river.

We know that we even could enchant something made with Revision but with the large downside that it only last as long the Revision spell hold.

That why in my opinion Vernin lock down on Revision as it never create something lasting and the aim of Vernin is to craft something that work over generations!

Revision might have a use to give the craftsmen that should create something for the Vernin mage a 3D model so they can build it as usualy even a Vernin think its below him/her to craft something them self instead of paying a craftsmen for this.

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In general Revision have the longest lasting magic of the legal paths and very vew of them even have a effect that can considered permanent i.e healing what is revising back a living creature to its natural state.

From discusions regarding extending your live we know that it get more and more difficult the more years your past you natural live span (probably becuase your body want to return to his natural state) .

This also the reason why enchant is never permanent it can work for centuries but is never complet permanent as the nature allways try to return to its natural state.

 

At last its how I understand it that the longer you force something via magic to be different the greater the oposting force becomes you have to work against but if you force something back into its natural shape its actual easy and lasting.

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Wait, so revised items only stay revised as long as the spell holds? I thought revision was a permanent solution, like when you're revising a wound or something

If Revision was permanent then all luxury goods would be created by Revisionists who would be makign a killing since the Creation of said goods without Revision is far more ardous and time consuming.

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The lores say that any mage who wants to have a legacy that lasts longer that their own lives should be capable of creating their own magical items (paraphrase)

 

Revision is temporary, although for higher end spells the duration might be for months if not a year. Such a duration would be long enough that whatever alteration you do would still be wothwhile for a lot of people that were able to take advantage of it.

 

Enchantment also is not 'permanent' as the magic does wear off, although the time is counted perhaps in centuries for quality works. Enchantment is a magical 'addition' to the item and frankly can include all manners of magic from incantation to revision to gates and mastery. The better your knowledge of the magic you want to accomplish, the better the overall results will be of your enchantment.

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I post the answears here that I got from my questions today as they are related to this topic!

Especial the answear to quesion 4 is interesting as it means that for mage that extend theyr live via magic they have to integrate the healing part already in theyr live extension magic or they never can heal again!

Given this big downside of live expansion magic I think I want to have a bat familiar again and go the evil route.

I thin the answear to 2 is also interesting maybe BCS allow us to come around such kind of magic in our 5 years ^^ (I suspect the magic to become a lich is along this line)

 

Schwarzbart;

 

1) I might be off but I suspect each living creature, object ect. have a natural state and magic usualy only push the person / object away from it and that why it becomes more and more difficult to keep the magic effect running the longer it is away from its natural state. Is this assumation correct?

 

That's essentially right, although there are other forces involved as well- the major one being entropic effects.

 

2) If 1 is correct have anyone tried or even succesed in change the natural state what should end up in a permanent change? Or is this kind of power beyond the curent human understanding or even beyond what magic is able to do?

 

It is theorized not to be possible. However, [redacted]. Naturally, she was burned at the stake.

 

3) can Negation heal by Negating temporary changes from the natural state? (Such a spell will have terrible effects on some one extening the live via magic)

 

Yes, that is the principle that both Negation and Revision use to heal, typically (and that is why such magics do not undo.)

 

4) Do the usual permanent healing spells have no or only temporary results when not overcomming the powerfull live extending magic of a mage past his natural end?

 

They can have pretty dramatic consequences for the target, as you can imagine. Such mages need to be healed very carefully, and they have many defenses erected against just this sort of magic.

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Well, I think it means that at the point where you're 200 years old, you focus more on "not dying" than "perfectly healing"

 

After all the body can still heal so long as it's not dead. :) You merely focus on dulling the pain and spend more time in convalescence.

 

At that point I don't think you find yourself getting seriously injured too often.

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If it were up to me I'd treat Enchanting as the creation of interfaces and trigger conditions for ongoing magical effects. That is, I'd consider a wizard re-shaping a tool to be simple revision while a wizard taking the same item and making it capable of lengthening or shortening itself at the holder's whim without first casting again would be an example of Revision enchantment. If such techniques allow even non-wizards to trigger magical effects via items then suddenly it's easy to see why enchanters could be super useful to many industries.

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If it were up to me I'd treat Enchanting as the creation of interfaces and trigger conditions for ongoing magical effects. That is, I'd consider a wizard re-shaping a tool to be simple revision while a wizard taking the same item and making it capable of lengthening or shortening itself at the holder's whim without first casting again would be an example of Revision enchantment. If such techniques allow even non-wizards to trigger magical effects via items then suddenly it's easy to see why enchanters could be super useful to many industries.

As I understand it, Enchantments can be very useful to anyone, from farmer, warrior to wizard and whatever in between or beyond.

Skillfully crafted enchatned items could surely be powermultipliers for anyone.

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One thing I am interested to see is the effect that all of the other skills that you learn in classes have. To tell the truth, I am uncertain how well my omni skills will work out, now.

 

While I still consider my Y1 playthroughs successes, it still remains to be seen as to how things like zoology affects Revision. I suppose in an abstract way it can allow you to do your revision on things more successfully if you know the little bits about them. If that was competely true though, I would think that you should also take botany as that would be just as important.

 

In truth I think there is some fluff to it. I don't think that there are many institutions that have absolutely no useless classes, so I suppose that it is inevitable that you have to put up with some of that. It is really only in the lores that we can catch a glimpse of the types of things that these auxiliary fields can do. The Geometry skill even says that those who put study into it will be able to do tricks at a younger age than otherwise possible, so I am curious as to how far that goes.

 

the types of magic that any player learns in Y1 is merely framework for future years. It's really hard to determine exactly how the intricate details go when we may not do that sort of thing until Y3 or later. Seeing as how the Regent of Vernin is a Revision guy and is not considered by any to be a grandmaster Enchanter, and is still learning the ropes of the game as he goes, then I would have to say that it's a whole different ball game.

 

Another thing to consider: As we progress through the years, our class choices are bound to have bigger impacts on the kinds of studies we do. In Y1 it might not be important to get a bonus when rolling against that class skill, but in later years, some of the phemes and other spells acquired by merely studying the class skills to get good grades will differentiate you from somebody who merely quickly raised their skill to 10 and called it a day.

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For me its more important to also have the suplementar skills to a magic then to have all the legal magic skills. That is one of the reason I usualy have at last one of the legal magic paths not learned despit of my heavy using from the class skiping exploit.

 

Edit: To get back on topic ... What I'm wondering is what the real supplementar skills for Revision are that will help in the next years?

I think Engineering and Forge could be helpful to craft & repair something using Revision while Zoology and Botany are more geared toward transformation and healing.

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For me its more important to also have the suplementar skills to a magic then to have all the legal magic skills. That is one of the reason I usualy have at last one of the legal magic paths not learned despit of my heavy using from the class skiping exploit.

 

Edit: To get back on topic ... What I'm wondering is what the real supplementar skills for Revision are that will help in the next years?

I think Engineering and Forge could be helpful to craft & repair something using Revision while Zoology and Botany are more geared toward transformation and healing.

I think I've managed to get all skills in a few playthroughs and a few expanded skillpoints in some skill trees. And, yeah, the game is certainly about more than just pure magical knowledge.

 

The hard part is, balancing skill progression with Adventures you want to do.... Buffing attributes, redusing skill training multipliers and using rare study skills can help a great deal.

 

One thing I am interested to see is the effect that all of the other skills that you learn in classes have. To tell the truth, I am uncertain how well my omni skills will work out, now.

 

While I still consider my Y1 playthroughs successes, it still remains to be seen as to how things like zoology affects Revision. I suppose in an abstract way it can allow you to do your revision on things more successfully if you know the little bits about them. If that was competely true though, I would think that you should also take botany as that would be just as important.

 

In truth I think there is some fluff to it. I don't think that there are many institutions that have absolutely no useless classes, so I suppose that it is inevitable that you have to put up with some of that. It is really only in the lores that we can catch a glimpse of the types of things that these auxiliary fields can do. The Geometry skill even says that those who put study into it will be able to do tricks at a younger age than otherwise possible, so I am curious as to how far that goes.

 

the types of magic that any player learns in Y1 is merely framework for future years. It's really hard to determine exactly how the intricate details go when we may not do that sort of thing until Y3 or later. Seeing as how the Regent of Vernin is a Revision guy and is not considered by any to be a grandmaster Enchanter, and is still learning the ropes of the game as he goes, then I would have to say that it's a whole different ball game.

 

Another thing to consider: As we progress through the years, our class choices are bound to have bigger impacts on the kinds of studies we do. In Y1 it might not be important to get a bonus when rolling against that class skill, but in later years, some of the phemes and other spells acquired by merely studying the class skills to get good grades will differentiate you from somebody who merely quickly raised their skill to 10 and called it a day.

While it would seem the Regent of Vernin is more at home with Revision than Enchantment, I would say that the enchantment he was doing in the Vernin adventure with those monks was far beyond the abilities of the PC, even if it was clearly taxing him to his limits far more than that order of master enchanters tending the great wall. Matain Leith is probably the best enchanter in school, least that we know off.

 

Orso Orsi is the Best at Incantation, Briardi is the Best at Negation, Ruprecht is good at Caligraphy and Orthograpy. Aventyrare seems to be very good at Revision(makes sense beign a Revision professor and all).... Who's better at Revision though? Aventrare or Regent Alonzo? Probably Aventyrare, but It's hard to know for certain, they could both be good but with different takes on it, apprently Aventyrare is less traditional....

 

Then we got the professors who are more into the non-magical arts, but they still seem to be wizards. Somehow Thibault Pluiete seems to be the least magical of them all for some reason.

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Actually, I suspect that the regent was not high level enough to do those enchantments properly and was being mastered. hence the nosebleed. I do agree that the PC couldn't do them as it more or less says so in the adventure step itself. It's probably a Y3 thing

 

Orsi is definitely more well rounded than merely Incantation. At the very least hes got glamour skills as well. We haven't really seen enough of his spellcasting to declare that incantation is his best, either.

 

Part of the problem is that there are actually spells related to skills that are traditionally not considered magical to us. Grammar is all about speaking (and writing) correctly, but there are spells that allow you to improve your skills in this area and it's very unlikely you're going to learn them unless you.spend the effort in learning all the tricks of the trade, so to speak. I think that the teaching of all these other traditional nonmagical skills (and adding a magical twist to them) is really what separates the Academagia from other schools.

 

Still, I am convinced that while auxiliary class skills are useful for growing as a specialist, I do not think that, strictly speaking, it is necessary to learn them. or at least most of them. I can definitely see math skills tie in with magic, and that's probably why Vernin teaches arithmetic... As enchantment is something that goes well with other magics. I can also see how Geometry ties in with Avila and star charts and such, but am overall less enthused with it in general. (I may put points there in Y3 though)

 

Really, the reason why I didn't put any serious thoughts to skills other than the main pillar skills in Y1 is because I don't see most of the connections, and am unwilling to waste effort going down paths that are not necessary unless it's really, really easy to do so, or else its required for certain adventures I want to do for roleplaying. I expect in Y2 to have a slight change of heart in these matters as I figure out all the old Y1 skill connections to Y2 magic skills, and thankfully Y2 will be a much longer game with summer break AND more action slots upon return. I think many of us forumites will have all the Y1 class skills at 10 at the end of Y5 if we choose to go the path of an omni and those skills are important. It's true that Focusing on Y1 skills in later years will take away time from learning later skills, but I think there's always something that you're going to miss and I'm going to make sure that I get the skills that are most important to me.

 

What's especially interesting is that Neither Gates nor Mastery have as yet, any auxiliary skills to learn. I don't doubt that some skills will be able to interact with the proscribed magics, but by and large I don't think it's necessary in order to learn them, and so unless I really, really want a skill, I'm not going to go for it. (zoology strikes me as a useful skill for creating Gates monsters, but that is admittedly not my particular interest for Gates as a whole)

 

Actually, as soon as the Y2 class list is revealed, I expect that we will be able to see the connections between skills, and so I'm really hoping that it coincides with DLC 17 coming out, so that we can more properly prepare without stumbling around in the dark as we have been.

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To me it would make sense if you need more Aritmatics, geometry and logic skills to fill in the gaps for the proscribed arts. Filling in the gaps would requier you to play magic detective, use your logic and Brains to fill in the gaps.

 

 

But, yeah, I really like enchantments and making stuff that lasts. Revision is really ncie for when you need to throw a party using nothing but magic.

 

All Magics and skills seem to have their Place. The social skills and even the spy skills can seem very useful.

I could deffinately see infiltration and espionage and spy skills being very useful for anyone doing illicit things. It's Always a good thing to avoid being noticed when doing those things, sometimes you might need them to get to what you're looking for.

There should be more spy and infiltration related activities involving Mastery and Gates, in the future imo. It should have an effect on your ability to get what you're looking for and using non magical skills might actually be harder to detect than Heavy Reliance to magic that the professors and librarians of the magic school are used to dealing with.

 

Expect a Professor to find it easier to see through illusions and Chamelion magic and magic invisibility than actual sneaking and hiding skills. They are less used to dealing with mundane tricks and slight of hand.

Magic becommes a crutch in that situation. While useful the magic might draw attention, while sneaking skills wouldn't be noticable for people focusing on magic based trickery.

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I totally agree. I think that Revision may not even be utilized to its full potential as is. I am very interested in learning of the kind of Revisions that the masters can do. I would love to Revise an opponents fireball spell into a beneficial spell to help me cast fireballs. It's all about using casting using offense and defense at the same time.

 

I agree that more traditional skills will have use in the school simply because there aren't many who can pull of the kind of things you can do with them, and that they also require special skills to be able to detect them.

 

I don't expect to go heavy into enchanting simply because I don't want to have to start worrying about all the really exotic ingredients that enchanters have to put up with. I'm not interested in potions either, so my interest in enchant may very easily end in Y2. One of the wonderful things I saw though, was that spot in the main story for the Legate, where you enchant a robe to be invisible, and although it had a strong magic aura, you can add a glamour to make the aura insignificant. It's all about creativity and ability. If you have access to a lot of different magics I think that the amount of stuff you can do will really blow the socks off of more traditional specialists.

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Revision is a full blown pillar which as any other pillar is self-sufficient and has (in theory) limitless possibilites.

 

While Enchant is a specialised magic (and a blend of Revision with another pillar that I always forget at that) that is limited without knowledge of at least another pillar and limited in possibilities.

 

So really the answer of to this question is quite simple: Enchant+pillar= winner and the best suited pillar seems to be Revision.

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I totally agree. I think that Revision may not even be utilized to its full potential as is. I am very interested in learning of the kind of Revisions that the masters can do. I would love to Revise an opponents fireball spell into a beneficial spell to help me cast fireballs. It's all about using casting using offense and defense at the same time.

 

I agree that more traditional skills will have use in the school simply because there aren't many who can pull of the kind of things you can do with them, and that they also require special skills to be able to detect them.

 

I don't expect to go heavy into enchanting simply because I don't want to have to start worrying about all the really exotic ingredients that enchanters have to put up with. I'm not interested in potions either, so my interest in enchant may very easily end in Y2. One of the wonderful things I saw though, was that spot in the main story for the Legate, where you enchant a robe to be invisible, and although it had a strong magic aura, you can add a glamour to make the aura insignificant. It's all about creativity and ability. If you have access to a lot of different magics I think that the amount of stuff you can do will really blow the socks off of more traditional specialists.

I've done that to the cloak in some earlier play throughs, but to me the Alchemy approach seemed superior by far. No magical aura and it accomplished invisibility. No magic to patch magic was needed. So when you got the supplies, the crafted cloak with the right coating seemed superior to me.

While the other enchantment based cloak first needed an invisibility enchantment, that caused such a strong magical aura it could easily be detected, so then you needed a pin with a glamour enchantment that merely made the onlooker less interested in looking at it. With more skill it was stated that you could accomplish it without that extra pin and add both enchantment to the cloak, but that was beyond your characters "skill" maybe a year 2 skill since it didn't come across as that very much far off, but still slightly too hard.

 

So, in a way, the use of Alchemy seemed to open up a non-magical alternative even if Alcemy is kind of magicbased, but it used natural Magics that are all around you and made it practicly unnoticable while accomplishing the same effect.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the use of an alchemical coatign on the cloak didn't use up it's capability to recieve further enchantmetns in the future, since it wasn't an enchantment but rather skillful crafting and augmentation of the material itself.

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In many cases of enchantment you don't seem to need Components, like when you enchant a ruby for Durand in his student adventure, least no supplies were mentioned there.

 

There is deffinately a Place for all Magics and Enchanting but sometimes the less Magical routes could produce very interesting options even if they might seem to requier more work and a broader knowledge of many skills to always have something available. While the use of the traditional pillars tend to be be more bruteforce and temporary effects, none of which is elegant or long lastign with the exception of Enchantments that can be fairly longlasting if the enchanter is very skilled.

 

Non-magical skills and approaches also seem to have the benefit of being stealthier and less obvious and possibly less vulnerable to Negation. I'm not sure how an alchemy coated cloak ofinvisibility would be affected by Negation magic, but it would seem like it should be less vulnerable, than a cloak enchanted by the known pillars of magic. You also got the benefit of not giving of magic radiation like a shimmering christmas tree.

 

Enchanting a cloak is most likely the easier path in most cases, but the Legate had provided you with a wellstocked Lab, so you had almost infinate options to accomplish the task he asked you to. I bet that the alchemical brew took a lot more alchemical Components than the enchantment process. More advanced enchanting seems to useOrthographyto aid in the process, while it wasn't mentioned in the case of enchanting the cloak.

Orthography might requier exotic inks, or at least the right inks to pull it off.

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  • 1 month later...

Arithmancy in Incantation II

 

That story sounds really impressive... Halffinnished fizzled spells that you store up which can then be released on command by finnishing the spell with one completing Word/gesture combination...

 

By finnishing and Activating twenty stored, unfinished foreball spells at the approaching enemy army.

 

Such tricks would make for powerful magic in story telling and adventures. It would seem it can be used in other Magics aswell.

 

Maybe you could use it in enchanting to perform an enchantment that would normaly requier more than one caster to create impressive enchantments. Or to setup traps and wait for the victim to show up.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Curse of the Branding Iron Counts is a revision. Sounds a littlebit Mastery like thoguh, but then again, some mastery stuff was taken in by Revision. At the same time, Revision can be sued to boost stats, but I don't assosiate revision with causing serious pain, if's usualy healing and gentle buffing.

 

It's extremely powerful for getting the Bonds going, but the description makes it sound like a very cruel spell. But I can't deny how effective it is if you got improved familiarhandling, train familiar and explore with your familiar.

 

You can useit two tiems beforethe losses cancels out the gain's. But at that Point you're Close to the be able to throw in the end atribute abilities.

Especialy if you stored Improved familiar handling in a quickslot, then you can use it while it's in reload.... You will boost quite a few bond levels in just a few Days.

 

So, it isn't that hard to get a familiar going. But the spell does sound rather cruel to your mailiar with all the pain and such.

 

Then again, the character can choose to do fairly painful things to push the boundries. Still, you're doing it to your poor familiar who hasn't really got a choice.

 

Still, I guess it's far less moraly questionable than Gift of the familiar when the familiar isn't dying and you're just being weird and never want to have a familiar ever again.(after getting those 10 bond levels)

 

I've been playing around with the familiar training quite a bit, it's kind of a science of it's own. Ignoring your familiar entierly seems like a poor choice for a student that wants to excell.

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