DrYuriMom Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 I wasn't debating when it became clear, I'm just saying that in the end it was undeniable. The focus on BB's by nations that could ill afford them did not do those nations any favors when reality struck quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenAoD Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 I guess the point of contention is that at the times the ships were built they were not bad investments, in fact they were the best investments at the times when they were built. And by that point where they were no longer the best the resources were already invested into the Battleships. Most navies attempted to put more resources into carriers but by that point it was a day late and a dollar short. Like what happened to poor Shinano... In a sense it is making a bad investment. You see what did successfully and you invest your resources thinking it will continue being successful, however it ends up being a dud and you lose your investment. There is nothing you can really do but see what you lost and try save whats left but that initial investment is still lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikelima777 Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Of course for the United States, the final sets of Battleships became very useful as AA-platforms. The sheer volume of AA fire from an Iowa-class was simply astounding, plus the big guns were very useful in knocking out shore positions, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrYuriMom Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 This... In a sense it is making a bad investment. You see what did successfully and you invest your resources thinking it will continue being successful, however it ends up being a dud and you lose your investment. There is nothing you can really do but see what you lost and try save whats left but that initial investment is still lost. ...is exactly what I was trying to convey with this... They were pinnacle ships built for the LAST war. As is so often the case, nations spend inordinate amounts of resources preparing for the last war, only to be somewhat/mostly/totally blindsided by the new, often relatively cheap, weapons that win the next one. The US committed the same error as Japan by building BB's in the 30's, but the US could afford to essentially waste materials on the North Carolinas and SoDaks. The Japanese didn't have that luxury. Imagine all the Taihos that could have been built for the steel dumped into Yamato, Musashi, and Shinano. In the end the only nation that had the resources to recover from the bad investment was the US who was able to spam out the Essex litter, the Midway big boys, the Independence teenyboppers, and a bunch of baby CVEs. The idea that you can reliably use the past to predict the future is dangerous. Yeah, the past is a useful set of data. Those who do not remember it must repeat it and all that. But you cannot draw a line from the past and expect it to continue forever. Disruptive technologies have a habit of emerging. Even here in Victory Belles, BCS had to dream up the "Morgana Mist" to ensure that we big gun romantics could get our fix of replaying Jutland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellington99 Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 This... ...is exactly what I was trying to convey with this... In the end the only nation that had the resources to recover from the bad investment was the US. The idea that you can reliably use the past to predict the future is dangerous. Yeah, the past is a useful set of data. Those who do not remember it must repeat it and all that. But you cannot draw a line from the past and expect it to continue forever. Disruptive technologies have a habit of emerging. Even here in Victory Belles, BCS had to dream up the "Morgana Mist" to ensure that we big gun romantics could get our fix of replaying Jutland. Only this time, I'll be using my battlecruisers as battlecruisers, and not as battleships Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenAoD Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Only this time, I'll be using my battlecruisers as battlecruisers, and not as battleships Why use battlecruisers when you can have fast battleships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PizzaRocket Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Yeah, that's the big thing: big guns doesn't make up for lack of armor. I'm curious about Salt Lake City for that because the Pensicola class was only really a "heavy cruiser" for the guns. Fast battleships in my mind are a natural evolution from battlecruisers and conventional battleships. I'd have to do some research, but I imagine it just wasn't feasible to make fast battleships at the time battlecruisers first started to be deployed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellington99 Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Why use battlecruisers when you can have fast battleships? So I can do this as I captain a BC: And to succinctly sum it up: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legate of Mineta Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 DYM; "Even here in Victory Belles, BCS had to dream up the "Morgana Mist" to ensure that we big gun romantics could get our fix of replaying Jutland. :)" ...that and control the number of Morgana carriers they throw against you. If you want your air war, you'll get it. If you want to refight Jutland, you can do that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikelima777 Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Is it possible for there to be like a training mode for the belles? Instead of getting rewards, it allows players to see how their ships would fare against certain enemy formations. Injuries can happen but aren't lethal, and it allows Admirals to think carefully when preparing a fleet for a mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwan Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 DYM; "Even here in Victory Belles, BCS had to dream up the "Morgana Mist" to ensure that we big gun romantics could get our fix of replaying Jutland. :)" ...that and control the number of Morgana carriers they throw against you. If you want your air war, you'll get it. If you want to refight Jutland, you can do that too. So there ARE times when carriers won't be nerfed by the mist! Also, when the game comes out I'll try and see how much I can do using a fleet made of only carriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrYuriMom Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Given we have folks already planning to make fleets w/o carriers (Oh hi there, Nel!) you may as well. As I say, whatever floats your boat! (TM) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legate of Mineta Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Elwan; Yep! And who is to say that you can't solve how to make carriers effective in the mists...? mikelima; That would be cool! Probably not for '39, but interesting to do, especially as a part of, say, PvP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imptrooper Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Is it possible for there to be like a training mode for the belles? Instead of getting rewards, it allows players to see how their ships would fare against certain enemy formations. Injuries can happen but aren't lethal, and it allows Admirals to think carefully when preparing a fleet for a mission. I hope so, that sounds like a great way for those of us that aren't amazing at strategy could get a hang on it with out worrying about losing our belles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imptrooper Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 I'm wondering (and I'm aware i might be asking to much of you) but will we atleast have teasers for later belles down the line or will we only see belles available to us out of the gate. Like will we maybe see a design for the USS Missouri or Bismarck this year or alot further down the road. Sorry I'm just both curious and impatient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legate of Mineta Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Imptrooper; Well, you don't have to worry *too* much about losing your Belles- they can't be sunk in just one engagement (exception: Death Date), so you can make mistakes as long as you withdraw! I would think you'll only see '39 Belles, although you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwan Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Elwan; Yep! And who is to say that you can't solve how to make carriers effective in the mists...? ...I was not expecting that. My silly challenge fleet might actually be possible. Anyways that will be a secondary fleet, my main fleet will be more diverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nel Celestine Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Given we have folks already planning to make fleets w/o carriers (Oh hi there, Nel!) you may as well. As I say, whatever floats your boat! (TM) You rang? -adjusts hat- But seriously ill be making a fleet for funs that's nothing but the most expensive Battleships and trying that out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legate of Mineta Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Nel; Just...don't go near any submarines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nel Celestine Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 lol it's only one fleet and more for lulz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwan Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Nel! I challenge your silly expensive battleship fleet with my silly expensive carrier fleet! *DRAMATIC POINTING* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenAoD Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Nel; Just...don't go near any submarines. Just ram 'em! Nel- Glad Im not the only one planning on rolling with a super heavy fleet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nel Celestine Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Nel! I challenge your silly expensive battleship fleet with my silly expensive carrier fleet! *DRAMATIC POINTING* Challenge Accepted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwan Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 Challenge Accepted! Very well then! Our duel is slated for the eve of Armageddon! ...or whenever PvP launches one or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PizzaRocket Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 I'll be sure to clean up the survivors with a sub wolfpack... I MEAN RESCUE!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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