Expulsion/suspension of "non-player students"?

[eatspam]

Is it even possible for the computer-controlled students to be expelled or suspended, just like the player?

 

I'm pretty sure that it ain't gonna happen under normal circumstances, since they (even the worst ones) seem to do everything it takes to not flunk out, but what if the student(s) in question have fallen victim to some... unspeakably evil influence (hint hint!) which causes them to, say, stare at a wall all day while drooling profusely, thereby preventing them from attending classes?

 

Common sense tells me that everyone should be treated equally, both the player and the other students, ergo detention/suspension/expulsion/whatnot should be possible.

On the other hand, I realize that because "normally", the AI students would never get into such a situation, and therefore the required mechanic for that might not even be implemented in the game.

 

I'm asking this, because after thoroughly mastering the forbidden arts, the first thing that I thought about was: how can I cause harm to my enemies? (no real enemies though, but there's a persstent bully wannabe this playthrough, which is close enough for me)

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a straightforward way of making them harm themselves (despite what was hinted at in the appropriate lore), so the next thing I thought about was, get them to run afoul of the #1 potential enemy of all students: the academy staff. And the simplest way to run afoul of the higher powers is to rack up lots of demerits. Well, that's how it works for the player, at least.

 

I currently don't have the time to try and find all that out, and it would take too long anyway (for a casual experiment, that is), so I guessed that I might as well simply ask instead.

 

Also, it's a pity that the forbidden arts can't be used to (subtly?) affect the instructors - at least I can't see a way to do that. Even if it would be insanely difficult (being a teacher means that you are supposed to know a lot!), it could lead to various... interesting situations, like the whole academy being thrown into chaos while the academy staff desperately tries to track down and punish the perpetrator. Or something like that anyway.

 

 

 

On a side note, the notion of virtually all of the other students - even the notorious bullies and other low-lifes - (almost) never skipping class is absurd.

In the high school I used to attend, my class consisted in >50% of the lowest life forms imaginable (for whom there was little more to life than alcohol, cigs, sex and street racing; and they attended shool only because it is required by law) - and they would do whatever was in their power to skip any and all classes they could.

 

Now I'm in college, and even though at this point noone is legally required to attend (* see below), most of my class (me included) also strives to skip as many classes as possible whilst satisfying the attendance and scoring minima. I do it because I don't need any stinking classes - due to my line of work, I was already an expert in this field before even choosing a college, so it's just useless and boring (also see note below). My friends do it because it's also boring and useless - even though they don't have even the slightest idea about whatever it is that they are supposed to learn, and as such they could really benefit from the classes.

 

I'm not sure how the "reality" looks like in the world of Academagia, but IMO only someone who never truly experienced college could come up with such an utopian absurdity (no offense intended, though).

 

(*) Technically, it is so - but the reality is such that you can't get any reasonable job around here without having college education. It's just a formality - it doesn't matter if you have the lowest passing score possible, or even if the subject of the studying has nothing whatsoever to do with the job involved. You just need the paper (that is, the diploma), that's all there is to it.

Yes, I know it sounds (and in fact is) ridiculous, but that's reality for you.

To rephrase it: although around here, there is no legal obligation to attend (and graduate), there is in fact a (practical) obligation to attend and graduate. Ergo the commonplace skipping of classes, because in the end it's a waste of time and effort.

[Legate of Mineta]

eatspam;

 

The Students cannot be Expelled (originally, they could, but the result was almost 10% of the Class being Expelled in a year!), but in Year 2 you will have the ability to redress that through the Influence system.

 

We are looking at ways to increase the amount of skipping again -this was in part disabled due to the problem noted above- but I can't say if that will return in Year 1. Thanks for the prompt, though.

[Schwarzbart]

There sould be still a way to get a NPC Student Susbended with the Civil Law line ^^. (Thought about using ths in my last game because Duel is kind of borken but then I got the Flowers and used them to get on the Good Side of my "Rival!)

[Gwendall]

Nuke your opponent before the duel. : )

[Schwarzbart]

No the broken Part is after you wone the duel because he/she still can use Hostile actions on you. So even after a sucessfull Duel one need to deal with the Bully in a other way and there was where I haved to decide use the law to push him complet out or get on his good side.

[eatspam]

Hmm, I don't quite understand: if they don't skip class, and get reasonable scores, then how would they get expelled then? Or maybe I have it backwards - is it that this "perfect attendance" now is artificially forced to cure that unwanted expulsion problem?

 

Also, isn't it normal for part of a class to drop out, just like in real life? Although I have to admit this particular case got me confused - Academagia (the academy, not the game) clearly functions like a college, but it seems that it's meant for beginners to magic, so it doesn't quite fit my perception of reality.

 

If it's technically a college-level institution, then yes, a ~10% dropout rate would be perfectly normal (* see exceptions below though).

EDIT: Also, in real life, the dropout rate is usually highest in the first year anyway; after that people tend to appreciate that they made it through and do their best not to flunk out on the subsequent years, driving the dropout rate down quite a bit.

 

On the other hand, where I live, education is compulsory up to and including high school, and expulsions are incredibly rare in those cases, maybe 1 in a 1000 students or less - the result is that the offender simply gets relocated to a different school, with a heap of demerits (and usually having to repeat the whole year) for a good start. Suspensions are "more common", but still very rare.

Perversely, the reason for this is bureaucracy: a school gets heavily penalized for expelling/suspending students (and even for forcing them to repeat a year!) - and their statistics suffer (and they receive operational funds from the government based on these statistics), so they do what they can to "push the scum through" to the next year, even if it means barely a passing grade. In fact, even if a student is far below a passing grade, they still receive a passing grade in the end anyway. I've seen that happen many times, first hand, what with all the scum in my classes. It benefits the school to do that; so who cares about the students, anyway?

 

 

I also just realized something else, completely unrelated: the particular forbidden art mentioned in my first post, it sucks so bad - I know that the relevant Lore doesn't favor this subject, but why can't it be used to affect not only actions but thought? Like convincing your archnemesis that he/she is in fact your best friend, or something to that effect? Currently there just doesn't seem to be a worthwile way to really punish an enemy this way. Clearly the true victory lies in crushing the opposition not only physically (or not at all), but also mentally/psychologically as well (compare with, say, the Dark Lords of the Sith, whose very presence was oftentimes enough to bend others to their will, by sheer fear if not anything else; ie. the mere presence of Darth Nihilus could turn Force-insensitive people to the dark side, something normally considered impossible (!)).

In fact, a fragmentary glimpse at the relevant Lore seems to indicate that the victim is aware of being affected by that forbidden art, while being powerless to do anything on their own; surely being subjected to that state for weeks/months on end would break even the strongest minds?

 

 

On an overall note, Academagia is a wonderful game (what with the replay value and all!), but there is one thing, apparently quite common to the genre, which I miss in it: a forbidden technique with terrifying offensive capability, which gives the user immense power at the cost of corrupting them mentally and/or physically.

I'm talking about a level of power which, when truly and fully mastered, would allow the user to annihilate practically any foe, be it man or beast, at appropriately great cost (like being damaged to -10 Vitality, or somesuch). Lore so dreadful and forbidden that the currently so-called "forbidden lore" pales in comparison, and which would be either so thouroughly banned that no one would even know it exists, or not exist in the first place and requiring development from ground up (basically forcing the player to invent and reinvent it from scratch in either case; not something you can do in a week, or even a month - and definitely not in year 1!).

Actually not an attack/offensive spell in itself, rather a technique which greatly multiplies the wielder's power, also leading to new techniques by combining it with other (legal or illegal) offensive abilities.

 

Of course there would be a different drawback as well - a huge chance of detection, since such a powerful and strange (that is, unknown) technique would pretty much draw the attention of everyone in range; even if there would be no direct witnesses, phenomena that powerful rarely go undetected (what with the earthquakes, huge craters and all?). And being detected would get you so screwed. Unless you could crush the opposition as well, that is.

 

Obviously this just screams "Evil Overlord" all over, but wouldn't neccesarily have to be used for evil purposes (Random events - payback time, anyone? For failing so much. Take THAT and die, you overgrown spider! Or thief. Or whatever.).

I have a particular story in mind regarding this, so if anyone is interested I'll post it here, rephrased as not to spoil the magnificent work of art behind it to anyone who hasn't encountered it yet.

For now I'll just say that it involves a 9-year old boy, already a mage with great aspirations (clearly a good guy though) who gets accidentally caught up in the machinations of an evil sect bent on world destruction. Obviously he's vastly outnumbered and "outspelled", so he literally puts his life on the line as he trains in the ways of a dreaded, forbidden art (who very few know even by name) to become ridiculously strong in a matter of months. In fact being so strong, that when he enters a competition against a hero who has saved the world 10 years earlier, he fights the hero to a draw (!). In what isn't exactly a fair fight, but what do you expect of forbidden dark arts? NB: in that world, there are only 2 people who have mastered that art, and he is the arguably the strongest one of the two. And without these dark arts, he wouldn't have lasted even 5 seconds in that competition.

There is much more to that story, this is very abbreviated, but that's the general idea.

 

 

 

 

(*) This is what happens when a particular course is very popular, that is, there are many more applicants than what can be accomodated. In those cases, fierce competition occurs and turnover is very high. Expel one student and forty more will come wanting to take his place.

Conversely, with most of the very unpopular courses (my own case: occupancy of less than 1/4 of what was permitted, due to lack of interest in, and difficulty of, the subject), the reverse occurs: since there are too few students to begin with, expelling more than one (or so) per year is unacceptable, soon the class would be empty.

For that matter, my class has about 30 students, and the dean is under direct orders from the rector to pressure the professors into lowering the grading thresholds as appropriate to make everyone pass.

Yes, it's the anathema of any educational system, but again the reason is money, so go figure.

Now you can see why the diplomas are worth little more than the paper they are written on: since it's commonplace for universities/colleges to graduate students with no knowledge of the subject whatsoever, the diploma does nothing to tell the employer the real skill level of its holder.

To cite an example: I, who have mastered multiple fields and disciplines (in a practical sense, no less - it's not just theory!) will graduate with little better than a passing grade. My friends, who can't even grasp the theory involved (much less putting it to practice!) will also graduate with similar grades, just above passing.

Which leads to a sad truth: yes, the diploma is as worthless as it sounds. You must have it to get any reasonable job, but just the diploma doesn't guarantee getting a good job. For that you need connections, because as I can tell from experience, of regular people, only those who have attained true mastery of the subject(s) have any hope of obtaining the required connections.

Around here it's strictly illegal for employers to hire people based on connections (whilst turning down other valid applicants), but paradoxically there exist legal instruments to allow doing exactly that (!!!), since if it were truly and strictly forbidden, then we as the society would be, well, truly and strictly screwed.

 

All of which leads to sometimes hilarious results: during my stint as a machinist (it was good while it lasted - it's a pity I can't go back to it; having access to the machining facilities was immensely useful) it was a common sight to see people with a Master's Degree (which is what you get for "just finishing" college, at least around here) who were using calipers - that is: delicate, precision measuring instruments - instead of a monkey wrench, since in a machining center the calipers are so commonplace you can't even walk ten feet without bumping into a set, and those people, having no idea about the purpose of the "commonplace strange implement which looks a bit like a monkey wrench" used it as they saw fit. Which of course caused every machinist within range to become red with fury due to "some moron" wrecking a good set of calipers (in a machining center, as a general rule, everything you can see is expensive beyond imagination). Some time later the whole thing would repeat in a slightly different setting. Over and over again. Go figure.

[Gwendall]

No the broken Part is after you wone the duel because he/she still can use Hostile actions on you. So even after a sucessfull Duel one need to deal with the Bully in a other way and there was where I haved to decide use the law to push him complet out or get on his good side.

 

Oh well yeah but that's already being looked at. I had an issue with the duel just ending all of a sudden - thought you were referencing that.

 

Yeah I ended up learning Mastery just to get my bully to shut up. If the Duel geas is fixed with this week's patch, then I may just start over - haven't decided.

 

------------

 

@eatspam

 

Do keep in mind we're supposed to be Year 1 students. I would say that a year of study into a forbidden art should not result in "Sith like" powers. If by the end of year one we were already powerful overlords, why would we need to progress to further years?

[Laytonia]

I'm talking about a level of power which, when truly and fully mastered, would allow the user to annihilate practically any foe, be it man or beast, at appropriately great cost (like being damaged to -10 Vitality, or somesuch). Lore so dreadful and forbidden that the currently so-called "forbidden lore" pales in comparison, and which would be either so thouroughly banned that no one would even know it exists, or not exist in the first place and requiring development from ground up (basically forcing the player to invent and reinvent it from scratch in either case; not something you can do in a week, or even a month - and definitely not in year 1!).

Actually not an attack/offensive spell in itself, rather a technique which greatly multiplies the wielder's power, also leading to new techniques by combining it with other (legal or illegal) offensive abilities.

 

Of course there would be a different drawback as well - a huge chance of detection, since such a powerful and strange (that is, unknown) technique would pretty much draw the attention of everyone in range; even if there would be no direct witnesses, phenomena that powerful rarely go undetected (what with the earthquakes, huge craters and all?). And being detected would get you so screwed. Unless you could crush the opposition as well, that is.

 

Obviously this just screams "Evil Overlord" all over, but wouldn't neccesarily have to be used for evil purposes (Random events - payback time, anyone? For failing so much. Take THAT and die, you overgrown spider! Or thief. Or whatever.).

I have a particular story in mind regarding this, so if anyone is interested I'll post it here, rephrased as not to spoil the magnificent work of art behind it to anyone who hasn't encountered it yet.

For now I'll just say that it involves a 9-year old boy, already a mage with great aspirations (clearly a good guy though) who gets accidentally caught up in the machinations of an evil sect bent on world destruction. Obviously he's vastly outnumbered and "outspelled", so he literally puts his life on the line as he trains in the ways of a dreaded, forbidden art (who very few know even by name) to become ridiculously strong in a matter of months. In fact being so strong, that when he enters a competition against a hero who has saved the world 10 years earlier, he fights the hero to a draw (!). In what isn't exactly a fair fight, but what do you expect of forbidden dark arts? NB: in that world, there are only 2 people who have mastered that art, and he is the arguably the strongest one of the two. And without these dark arts, he wouldn't have lasted even 5 seconds in that competition.

There is much more to that story, this is very abbreviated, but that's the general idea.

 

Uh......sounds like incredible fun to be evil, but I think causing earthquake isn't gonna earn you expulsion. More like death penalty.

Or an early ending where you just ditch school to become an evil overlord.

Still, might be fun to Induce Coma on a teacher.

Or "Forced Farting, Permanent".