DrYuriMom

Effects of Belles on developing history

65 posts in this topic

I think you are mistaken v_L.
It's also mentioned you as a player can choose a nationalistic path and also the words you posted, with an small amount of original comment, more or less depict more of an idea, than a reality. Especially since it mentions the "neutral" fleet in the spanish civil war.

Also I think you missed out the "fun" part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm wondering how it might look further in the VB universe. Unfortunately, my country's history looks like a Gordian knot. Events such as September 12, 1939 - Abbeville, September 17, 1939 - Soviet Invasion of Poland, Tehran Conference, Yalta Conference had a powerful influence on history. If this is to be an alternative version of history, then the Polish Navy could have been able to execute the Z or W plan. Full scale naval submarine warfare with Polish submarines on German and Russian ports and torpedo attacks using Cant-506s.

To be more interesting, there were two governments at the end of the war. Polish government-in-exile in London and the Provisional Government of National Unity in Warsaw and two Polish navies.

Another matter is how the relations between the Polish belles, and the German and Soviet Russia's belles relations would look.
Forced co-operation? Friendly co-operation or total hostility to both sides and distrust.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shirogane said:

Another matter is how the relations between the Polish belles, and the German and Soviet Russia's belles relations would look. Forced co-operation? Friendly co-operation or total hostility to both sides and distrust.

I just imagine the Schleswig-Holstein Walküre waking up from the first shots and going all "WTF is happening?!" and ceases fire immediately and refuses to fire more rounds. And a totally baffled captain who tries to convince her to resume fire, but she won't accept such a lunatic as captain.:D .....

Or plain frightening for Poland: She likes what she's doing..... and annihilates the Westernplatte, because of incredibly more firepower. Just imagine any S-H attack, but totally devastating. :blink:

It's even possible for S-H to not have a Belle at all. And getting a big tin-can of major popcorn whoopass by a polish Belle.

All three scenarios alone have a lot of follow up consequences and we even haven't pondered the personalities of the Belles and how you can treat them. So let's stick to your thought of the realtionship between polish, soviet and german Belles:
German and Soviet Belles, as stereotype, don't hold a lot of love for each other. The Royal Navy Belles are the real opponent, but the Soviet Belles are the enemy.... it's the difference between shooting each other according to rules, finding out who is supreme on the one hand and trying to annihilate each other at any cost, gloves off and f**k the rules on the other hand. This given and and the "special connection" between Belles given, the polish Navy can survive even easier and better no matter how the war goes for Poland. My point of view:
Scenario 1: Plan Belle-Peking. The home and the ports are lost, polish Belles are allowed(!) to reach britain, get a base there in an INPF-Forces port and work as an independent Force inside the INPF.
Scenario 2: The whole power of the polish fleet has to keep at least the Hel peninsula in polish hands until a cease-fire until the formation of the INPF is in effect. Poland suffers greatly, but is not lost.
Scenario 3: The Kriegsmarine is very busy with the Allied fleet, who keep her busy to relieve Poland Belles, and the Morganas. Poland can sack East-Prussia and thus get a peace with status quo ante with germany. Soviet Russia tries to sack East-Poland but gets smacked in the face like it's autumn 1920. Or maybe soviet Belles even come to aid the polish, to talk reason to the german Walküren. Shiro dances and sings and starts Polands rescue of the whole world. In the best case like it's 1683 together with the germans (and soviets).

In the first scenario there would be little relations between polish and soviet or german Belles. Poland would be driven out of the baltic and would participate in the North sea/Atlantic game. Sounds familiar?

Otherwise it would depend on how much the Belles themselves are affected by the war and what they did do to each other or things they hold dear. To stick to the example: S-H and Wicher will meet. After S-H ceased fire Wicher probably likes her. After S-H laid waste to everything polish? Not so much, but the dislike would be mutual. You can expand this to fleet scale.

Also let's not forget the "glorious Anglo-francian help" for poland in 1939....... which didn't happen. Maybe the polish Belles get a bit moody about it too?

Poland is THE most interesting starter of them all. Because it's in a mess from day one and the possibilities are many.

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Käpt'n Korky said:

I just imagine the Schleswig-Holstein Walküre waking up from the first shots and going all "WTF is happening?!" and ceases fire immediately and refuses to fire more rounds. And a totally baffled captain who tries to convince her to resume fire, but she won't accept such a lunatic as captain.:D .....

Or plain frightening for Poland: She likes what she's doing..... and annihilates the Westernplatte, because of incredibly more firepower. Just imagine any S-H attack, but totally devastating. :blink:

It's even possible for S-H to not have a Belle at all. And getting a big tin-can of major popcorn whoopass by a polish Belle.

All three scenarios alone have a lot of follow up consequences and we even haven't pondered the personalities of the Belles and how you can treat them. So let's stick to your thought of the realtionship between polish, soviet and german Belles:
German and Soviet Belles, as stereotype, don't hold a lot of love for each other. The Royal Navy Belles are the real opponent, but the Soviet Belles are the enemy.... it's the difference between shooting each other according to rules, finding out who is supreme on the one hand and trying to annihilate each other at any cost, gloves off and f**k the rules on the other hand. This given and and the "special connection" between Belles given, the polish Navy can survive even easier and better no matter how the war goes for Poland. My point of view:
Scenario 1: Plan Belle-Peking. The home and the ports are lost, polish Belles are allowed(!) to reach britain, get a base there in an INPF-Forces port and work as an independent Force inside the INPF.
Scenario 2: The whole power of the polish fleet has to keep at least the Hel peninsula in polish hands until a cease-fire until the formation of the INPF is in effect. Poland suffers greatly, but is not lost.
Scenario 3: The Kriegsmarine is very busy with the Allied fleet, who keep her busy to relieve Poland Belles, and the Morganas. Poland can sack East-Prussia and thus get a peace with status quo ante with germany. Soviet Russia tries to sack East-Poland but gets smacked in the face like it's autumn 1920. Or maybe soviet Belles even come to aid the polish, to talk reason to the german Walküren. Shiro dances and sings and starts Polands rescue of the whole world. In the best case like it's 1683 together with the germans (and soviets).

In the first scenario there would be little relations between polish and soviet or german Belles. Poland would be driven out of the baltic and would participate in the North sea/Atlantic game. Sounds familiar?

Otherwise it would depend on how much the Belles themselves are affected by the war and what they did do to each other or things they hold dear. To stick to the example: S-H and Wicher will meet. After S-H ceased fire Wicher probably likes her. After S-H laid waste to everything polish? Not so much, but the dislike would be mutual. You can expand this to fleet scale.

Also let's not forget the "glorious Anglo-francian help" for poland in 1939....... which didn't happen. Maybe the polish Belles get a bit moody about it too?

Poland is THE most interesting starter of them all. Because it's in a mess from day one and the possibilities are many.

 

also the distinct possible chance that belles can fight on land would change the entire German invasion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Käpt'n Korky said:

I just imagine the Schleswig-Holstein Walküre waking up from the first shots and going all "WTF is happening?!" and ceases fire immediately and refuses to fire more rounds. And a totally baffled captain who tries to convince her to resume fire, but she won't accept such a lunatic as captain.:D .....

Or plain frightening for Poland: She likes what she's doing..... and annihilates the Westernplatte, because of incredibly more firepower. Just imagine any S-H attack, but totally devastating. :blink:

It's even possible for S-H to not have a Belle at all. And getting a big tin-can of major popcorn whoopass by a polish Belle.

Otherwise it would depend on how much the Belles themselves are affected by the war and what they did do to each other or things they hold dear. To stick to the example: S-H and Wicher will meet. After S-H ceased fire Wicher probably likes her. After S-H laid waste to everything polish? Not so much, but the dislike would be mutual. You can expand this to fleet scale.

 

 

As I read the logbook of ship Schleswig-Holstein it seems to me that it could not function as a watch. It is assumed that the Westerplatte fire from his cannons at 4:45 on September 1, 1939, was the beginning of World War II in Europe. De facto the fire started three minutes later, at 4:48, and the reason for the delay was the need to switch the ship from the depths of the Port Channel to the Bend of Five Whistles.  At. 04:43 Commander of the battleship ordered an artillery to open fire. Five minutes later the 280 mm and 150 mm caliber guns fired missiles towards Westerplatte. However, no bullets from the first shot no hit the target.  Almost all the bullets flew over the Westerplatte and fell into the Baltic Sea or in the trees on the WST ... This was confirmed by the veterans of the ship and the last dead defender of the Westerplatte five years ago . In my opinion, S-H should wear glasses.

  Pretty interesting proposals Corky

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, lazarusdw said:

also the distinct possible chance that belles can fight on land would change the entire German invasion

 
Cool if other use of the second Polish Navy together with river battleships^_^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah poland may not have to worry about the Morganas so much for them to get at poland they have to get past the german norway and sweden navys. while poland will want to breakout into the atlantic so does the soviet fleet in saint petersburg so poland at sea at least can play a waiting game and use thier belles on land instead, In fact poland could be why the league of nations treaty came about.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Spoiler

> why do you post everything

legacy mobile habit

> I think you are mistaken

Point was: If country Cap has enough Belles left for anything after subtracting convoy/coastline/resources/Morganae-needed, then playing EASY MODE it's too late to cause that much history divergence. So expect info leaking/selective help only.

>Poland

already sunk deep enough to have only 2 escape routes to survive: fantasy and real. But "cede coastline Polish corridor to Germany" contradicts "courage@honor", so be realistic and wait for aliens.

> have to worry about the Morganas

Spoiler

By late afternoon Greenwich time, however, major raids affected almost every naval power on Earth. American vessels were attacked within sight of the Brooklyn Navy Yard; the British were hit near Scapa Flow. Off the Moroccan coast, in spitting distance of Danzig and Leningrad, in plain view of Bari, on the edge of Maizuru Harbor, and in so many other places, mists appeared from nowhere, and ships were blasted apart in a thunder of guns and fire.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Shirogane said:

As I read the logbook of ship Schleswig-Holstein it seems to me that it could not function as a watch. It is assumed that the Westerplatte fire from his cannons at 4:45 on September 1, 1939, was the beginning of World War II in Europe. De facto the fire started three minutes later, at 4:48, and the reason for the delay was the need to switch the ship from the depths of the Port Channel to the Bend of Five Whistles.  At. 04:43 Commander of the battleship ordered an artillery to open fire. Five minutes later the 280 mm and 150 mm caliber guns fired missiles towards Westerplatte. However, no bullets from the first shot no hit the target.  Almost all the bullets flew over the Westerplatte and fell into the Baltic Sea or in the trees on the WST ... This was confirmed by the veterans of the ship and the last dead defender of the Westerplatte five years ago . In my opinion, S-H should wear glasses.

  Pretty interesting proposals Corky

 

Well I hope she fired more than one single shot. ;) But yes, you can range in better on a stationary target in calm waters than that. And maybe you can give her glasses. :D
And did you know the commmander of the polish defenders was handed back his saber with the right to wear it in captivity?

And thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I saw that poland was an option, I really wanted to play it, but alas, I found my wallet devoid of funds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24.08.2017 at 7:08 AM, Käpt'n Korky said:

Well I hope she fired more than one single shot. ;) But yes, you can range in better on a stationary target in calm waters than that. And maybe you can give her glasses. :D
And did you know the commmander of the polish defenders was handed back his saber with the right to wear it in captivity?

And thank you.

I know the case, but it was not his saber but the deputy captain. Franciszek Dabrowski, who was the true commander defense of Westerplatte.  The real saber of the commander Westerplatte mjr. Henryk Sucharskiego lost and therefore borrowed from the captain. Francis Dabrowski assured that he would return it. To go into captivity look good, as an officer of the Polish army

Do you know that? German soldiers have discovered ammunition depots allowing defense for another fortnight, which has shocked the German officers.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Shirogane said:

I know the case, but it was not his saber but the deputy captain. Franciszek Dabrowski, who was the true commander defense of Westerplatte.  The real saber of the commander Westerplatte mjr. Henryk Sucharskiego lost and therefore borrowed from the captain. Francis Dabrowski assured that he would return it. To go into captivity look good, as an officer of the Polish army

Do you know that? German soldiers have discovered ammunition depots allowing defense for another fortnight, which has shocked the German officers.

 

Well it was taken away from him anyway a few month later, by german officers who weren't involved in the siege.

No, I did not know that. But I'm not really surprised. They showed up more resistance than expected anyhow.
The polish started smuggling more personnel and weapons into Danzig long before the war started. And they were good doing it. Some people in the city noticed it, because suddenly there were a lot more polish "custom officers" in the free harbour than allowed. And strangely strong armed for custom personnel. But their protest was ignored by the League of nations (who officially held the city), since they were all german and the polish were clever enough to hide the real amount and only showed stuff in the public whose discovery was inevitable anyway. And the german military ignored reports from inside Danzig about all this because they thought those civilians/ paramilitary groups ("SS-Heimatwehr Danzig" sounds great... but they were...meh) were exaggerating. It's also the reason why the postal office held by the polish defenders was surprisingly resilient to german attacks.

But we stray from the subject of the thread. If you want to discuss Danzig, we should probably move it to history?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok i'm thinking from a purely lore perspective what would happen if a german belle I.E. Admiral Graf Spee picked a german jew to be her captain how would that affect germany

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, lazarusdw said:

ok i'm thinking from a purely lore perspective what would happen if a german belle I.E. Admiral Graf Spee picked a german jew to be her captain how would that affect germany

Some ideas:

End one: It would not be mentioned in germany if possible, german navy personnel had to remain silent about it and the ship would be decommissioned by the german navy. It would go over to the INPF completely and ignored if possible. Most german captains would refuse to serve together with it.

End two: The Belle would be publicly treated as a traitor, tensions against Belles would arise on different levels. Maybe the german navy would try to blow it up "by accident", maybe not. It would never again be mentioned in the "Wochenschau" (weekly news reel), radio and the newspapers, except in a negative way to spin the "jews are evil and deserve to die" narrative. She would probably be called "the jewish belle" which sounds descriptive, but anything "jewish" is meant as an insult in nazi-germany in general. German captains would be treated as traitors if they cooperated with that Belle.

End three: The jew would be killed if possible, the Belle put under interrogation (assited by Belles like Nürnberg, natürlich) or sunk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds kinda similar to if an American Belle chose a black man as captain.  Lynching in the late 30's was not a practice peculiar to Germany...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now