Playing with/ Thoughts on the Game in General.

[Metis]

Thing is, "a" standard class is next to nothing because, as you'll recall, you're asked to Attend Classes. Three, in fact, per action. The private classes need to be at least 3 times as efficient as regular classes to maybe be able to compete with Train. The issue isn't whether they'll be more efficient, I don't doubt they will be, the issue is whether they'll be more efficient enough. 300% output at minimum to compete with the singular worst competition is a tough thing to do.

 

...Actually, didn't the Legate say we needed to use stuff like Research to actually raise skill maximums to 20 for Y2? Maybe that's the secret: The class doesn't just hand out steps, they also hand out research levels like the Sphinx does. Add that, and every class suddenly get an extra 30 "steps" to teach, if 10 research levels will even suffice.

 

Call it jumping to conclusions, but I think I may have discovered the secret...a possible secret...maybe.

[Albert]

Maybe we would have advanced skills available aswell. Skills that take more time to train.

 

Advanced Incatation methods, Advanced Incatation phemes, Advanced Incantation spells, you get the idea... If for example you pick an extra class in a special field. Assuming we got the basic schooling to actualy attend the advanced class.

[Schwarzbart]

As fare as I understand it we will be able to push many skills in year 2 to 20 using Research or other means to get past the 10 maximum but we also get new Skill sets that are specialised forms of the magic we could learn in year 1.

I also suspect we will see much more change in the training multiplication depending on what other skills our char knows.

[Metis]

Specialist skills that are difficult to learn and will require research levels to learn up to 20, consisting of four or more subskills? Still not convinced it'll be worth 200 turns, unless those specialist skills had absolutely ruinous training modifiers.

 

Which would make those classes less useful, since we'd be able to study them better outside of it due to our control of which skill to focus on and Selective Focus.

[Schwarzbart]

That why we had already a suggest that trough class skills have a different train mod then outside of class.

[Metis]

That why we had already a suggest that trough class skills have a different train mod then outside of class.

Depends on how you explain it. It doesn't make sense if the difference comes from the teachers because they can't bring anything to the table to make learning things easier that, say, the Sphinx cannot.

 

Conversely, if Y2's classes are held in different classrooms than in Y1 and those new classrooms has the effect of "lower training modifier of the subskills the classroom is used to teach", that would make perfect sense. It'd be annoying that these places wouldn't exist in Y1, but it's not like we need them in Y1 because it's easy enough to get a skill down to 0/1 skill step per level and the Sphinx can hand out that skill perfectly fine.

[isadorbg]

One solution that i like and think is simple to make is that a class slot automatically grant a skill point in one of the class teached. That way and assuming that 10+ skills will be harder to level (3-5 step my guess) will make the classes a lot more attractive.

 

Plus the legate said that classes will be handled differently and apparently will be more "eventfull" if i understood correctly.

[Metis]

Plus the legate said that classes will be handled differently and apparently will be more "eventfull" if i understood correctly.

...Let's hope those events won't be like early game random events. Those are just...brutal.

[Albert]

...Let's hope those events won't be like early game random events. Those are just...brutal.

It would be nice if there were two or three types of class events. A set of random that are easier and can run for the first part of the year or even the whole year. And another that activates after half the year has passed.

After half the year has passed you are at least likely to stand a chance at pulling those new hard feats off.

 

On the other hand it makes sense that bad thigns can happen at any time, but class event's should be relative to what the teacher is currently teachign you and the knowledge of rival students.

 

You can't expect rival studnets to masterfully use advanced skills they arn't even capable of using because they havn't learned the skill yet and suceed while you stand no chance to counter just because you lack the skill needed.

[Albert]

I was thinking about those Syncronysity skills, it should take far less skill to hide and block information than it would take to dig it up.

 

The one connecting is always at the dissadvantage of fighting the resistance of the mind they are entering.

If you got the skills then it should take less effort for you to sheild off a part of your mind and make the initiator unaware of that part of your mind. (you would need to pass a roll of 1/2 of the oponents Syncronysity/insight roll)

 

An interesting application would be if you could use Syncronysity not just to hide but actualy trap theattacking oponent in an empty void within your mind, like a mindprison which makes their physical body go limp and unresponsive while prapped elsewhere. They would be free again once you let go, maintaining it might take some effort, maybe one stress/round unless you suceed at making that roll again andmanage to mitigate stress from happening.

If you are barely able to do this then this technique would likely make you loose in the end unless it buys you enough time to tie up your oponent in the physical world and then get out oft there or dispose of them if you're of that disposition. Or you could make sure to erase their memory of your encounter, even Glamours could work for that if not Mastery. If you're really good you could fake a memory of them getting robbed by simple thives that smashed them in the back of their head when they atempted to talk their way out of it or fight.

 

If the oponent used Mastery or Syncronysity against you and you want to use this very effort intensive defence then you might have to pass a Syncronysity/insight roll 2x the oponents Syncronysity/insight or Mastery/insight. Or maybe it should be Fitness or finesse for mastery since that's what they usualy use, but Insight seems better since I think that's what a battle of the mind would require.

I've always thought that insight and inteligence would be the most imporant attributes in a battle of the mind senario asside from experience ofcourse(skill).

[Metis]

I was thinking about those Syncronysity skills, it should take far less skill to hide and block information than it would take to dig it up.

 

The one connecting is always at the dissadvantage of fighting the resistance of the mind they are entering.

If you got the skills then it should take less effort for you to sheild off a part of your mind and make the initiator unaware of that part of your mind. (you would need to pass a roll of 1/2 of the oponents Syncronysity/insight roll)

Incorrect. Untrained individuals cannot hide just one specific part, either you resist the caster or you don't. You can only hide specific parts if you yourself know Sync, but doing so during an Embrace is more difficult than actually finding out what that person is hiding. You can make unwanted memories more difficult to find beforehand, but since you can't Embrace yourself someone else will have to do that for you. And whoever does that will know everything.

 

An interesting application would be if you could use Syncronysity not just to hide but actualy trap theattacking oponent in an empty void within your mind, like a mindprison which makes their physical body go limp and unresponsive while prapped elsewhere. They would be free again once you let go, maintaining it might take some effort, maybe one stress/round unless you suceed at making that roll again andmanage to mitigate stress from happening.

If you are barely able to do this then this technique would likely make you loose in the end unless it buys you enough time to tie up your oponent in the physical world and then get out oft there or dispose of them if you're of that disposition. Or you could make sure to erase their memory of your encounter, even Glamours could work for that if not Mastery. If you're really good you could fake a memory of them getting robbed by simple thives that smashed them in the back of their head when they atempted to talk their way out of it or fight.

That...that wouldn't work at all. Like, not even a small part of that would work. First, Sync cannot trap minds like that. Second, you don't go physically limb while in Embrace unless either the caster or patient outright passes out (which, in the caster's case, disconnects them right there). Third, I don't think you can edit memories like that with Glamour, I know you can't with Sync at least, you'd most likely need Mastery. Fourth, anyone doing that with ill intend is failing their Empathy training and, thus, inept at using Sync.

 

If the oponent used Mastery or Syncronysity against you and you want to use this very effort intensive defence then you might have to pass a Syncronysity/insight roll 2x the oponents Syncronysity/insight or Mastery/insight. Or maybe it should be Fitness or finesse for mastery since that's what they usualy use, but Insight seems better since I think that's what a battle of the mind would require.

I've always thought that insight and inteligence would be the most imporant attributes in a battle of the mind senario asside from experience ofcourse(skill).

Mastery, traditionally, is detected with Insight/Awareness and fought off with either Insight/Negation or I think Finesse/Mastery. One of the things that makes Sync different from Mastery is that fact that while it, too, is detected by Insight/Awareness, it can be fought off with just plain Insight/Willpower. No fancy magic training necessary. Admittedly it can't be entirely fought off with just Willpower, for that you would need Insight/Negation, but it can severely limited what a caster can do (up to the point where can can't do anything other than notice they're not welcome). The caster can roll a contested Insight/Serenity v. Insight/Willpower, with the latter roll being favored all other things being equal, but that isn't to forcefully overcome a person's unwillingness to cooperate. That's to appear non-threatening, which will generally lower a person's guard of their own accord.

[Albert]

So, a dragon does evils simply because it lacks empaty and enlightenment/insight? Or maybe it just revels in the missery and pain from others. It would be hard to take pleasure in other peoples suffering if you couldn't empathise with their plight. How would their suffering bring you pleasure if you can't detect it or appreciate it?

 

I really don't think Empathy would have to inclue a goodnatured mentality. A good natured person(who likes people in general) would feel bothered by other peoples suffering, someone who doesn't like people very much or even hates them, might not be bothered by others sufferign in the same way, they might actualy feel that these people are getting what they deserve. Which would be an emotional reaction to being able to emphatise with them and realise what they are going through.

 

Which would make Empathy more of an specialised insight based skill. In the end it would depend on the person's mental disposition towards these people. In most cases people would likely dislike other peoples suffering, but not in every case.

 

Would you really have to embrase yourself to control what's already in your own mind? You should have more control over that that the mind of others. Preparing oneself for an "embrace" if you know what it is makes sense.

Compared to someone who has no idea what's happening. I guess you would have to be good enough to hide parts of your minds index function from that other person. Because noone would find anything in a mind covering years or decades if they couldn't access some kind of index.

Maybe hiding your secrets could be a future more advanced skill that you can research if you get concerned about the vulnerability that your knowledge of Mastery and Syncronisity has shown you. It might make for an interesting Adventure. Searching the forbidden archives, then tracking down secrets found elsewhere following directions you uncover in your search for answers. Maybe there should be a skill called Mental clarity or Mental control. Which would be an additional Syncronisity skill that could help you defend against unwelcome intrusions. Adding a third level of saves beyond the basic resistance against Mastery and people surfing your mind effortlessly.

 

So, maybe I should forcefully teach Divesque Empaty! I doubt it would make it enjoy the pain of others any less. That dragon book really seems to love other peoples pain. It also seems to be wanting to turn the player into embracing that mentality, even if it can't force it.

 

Anyway, like I said, I really don't think empathy on it's own would prevent people from having selective values.

[Albert]

It also makes sense if Kazus doesn't teach their initiates or even members how to hide secrets. But I'm sure there are others who knows or knew. Since as you said, it's an old art. Meaning there must have been many practitioners initialy with different ideas and ideals.

 

Also, the idea that you could counter attack and make the other person go limb isn't because it's sometihng that normaly happens but the Embrace goes both way, and if you are a lot mroe skilled perhaps twice as powerful in the art, then maybe you could shield of that other sperson from their own normal functions before they got a chance to react.

Which would be extremely hard to pull off. You don't really hurt them, you just detain them while you figure a solution to your predicament. Doing that to another person would also be very straining which is why I added the sugestion to have such an action cause stress while maintained unless the other person is totaly helpless.

Meaning it wouldn't be an optimal solution. But it could give you some time if the meld got you into a lot of trouble.

 

Also, there was an adventure where my Character could use a powerful Glamour on Philipe to make him forget what he was doing and what was going on. Then he just walked off. It was a pwoerful first year Glamour apparently.

 

Personaly, I think Glamours like that makes Glamour seem close to as bad as Mastery, even if it isn't quite as invasive. There seems to be a fine line somewhere.

[Metis]

So, a dragon does evils simply because it lacks empaty and enlightenment/insight? Or maybe it just revels in the missery and pain from others. It would be hard to take pleasure in other peoples suffering if you couldn't empathise with their plight. How would their suffering bring you pleasure if you can't detect it or appreciate it?

 

I really don't think Empathy would have to inclue a goodnatured mentality. A good natured person(who likes people in general) would feel bothered by other peoples suffering, someone who doesn't like people very much or even hates them, might not be bothered by others sufferign in the same way, they might actualy feel that these people are getting what they deserve. Which would be an emotional reaction to being able to emphatise with them and realise what they are going through.

 

Which would make Empathy more of an specialised insight based skill. In the end it would depend on the person's mental disposition towards these people. In most cases people would likely dislike other peoples suffering, but not in every case.

Empathy, ingame, is described as being a skill with imagining yourself in another person's shoes and trying to understand why they're doing things differently. If your are unable to recognise that others people's suffering, however deserved, is still suffering than congratulations, you botched an Empathy roll.

 

Would you really have to embrase yourself to control what's already in your own mind? You should have more control over that that the mind of others. Preparing oneself for an "embrace" if you know what it is makes sense.

Compared to someone who has no idea what's happening. I guess you would have to be good enough to hide parts of your minds index function from that other person. Because noone would find anything in a mind covering years or decades if they couldn't access some kind of index.

Yes, and unfortunately you cannot Embrace yourself. Even if you could, it'd be impossible to hide a memory that way, since the act of trying to hide it would itself become a memory connected (to the memory you're trying to hide, even). And trying to hide that memory would, in turn, become a memory as well. If you want a memory hidden, you need outside help. Or Mastery, if you can Master yourself, but Sync could detect that far more easily than other Sync use anyway.

 

And memories, BTW, don't have convenient indexes, everything is simply connected to everything related to it in either concept or arbitrarily like a giant road network from Hell. A Sync caster simply starts from a commonly remembered point and goes from there. Yes, it's chaos, but if you simply ask the patient where to find what you're looking for and said patient will take you right there. And no, that does not give the patient control over where the caster can and cannot go. Trying to knowingly hide something will just highlight that memory and invite the Sync user to go straight there. Remember, skills like Lie or Bluff are meaningless when someone else is semi-literally inside your head.

 

Maybe hiding your secrets could be a future more advanced skill that you can research if you get concerned about the vulnerability that your knowledge of Mastery and Syncronisity has shown you. It might make for an interesting Adventure. Searching the forbidden archives, then tracking down secrets found elsewhere following directions you uncover in your search for answers. Maybe there should be a skill called Mental clarity or Mental control. Which would be an additional Syncronisity skill that could help you defend against unwelcome intrusions. Adding a third level of saves beyond the basic resistance against Mastery and people surfing your mind effortlessly.

Sync can do that by itself, no extra skill required. Just as it allows you access to someone else's mind, it allows you to better deny access to your own, if you're so inclined. Just more skill ranks in Sync than a second year student is likely to get. BTW, I think Negation can also protect you from that, but don't quote me on that.

 

So, maybe I should forcefully teach Divesque Empaty! I doubt it would make it enjoy the pain of others any less. That dragon book really seems to love other peoples pain. It also seems to be wanting to turn the player into embracing that mentality, even if it can't force it.

 

Anyway, like I said, I really don't think empathy on it's own would prevent people from having selective values.

Gameplay mechanics aside, forcefully teaching someone Empathy is a more futile endeavour than forcefully teaching someone Patience. Diavesque especially would just ignore you or...ignore you, basically.

 

"Selective" values, at least to me, sounds like "it's perfectly fine for me to mentally screw with this person, tie him up, rob him blind and make him think he was robbed by random muggers, so long as this person is X" (fill in X with whatever you like). If you mean personal values (at least personal values as I understand them), well, they don't always play nice with Empathy. They especially don't play nice when those values involve situations where you're perfectly justified with robbing someone. They don't disallow you from having them outright, they just invalidate a large part of them.

 

It also makes sense if Kazus doesn't teach their initiates or even members how to hide secrets. But I'm sure there are others who knows or knew. Since as you said, it's an old art. Meaning there must have been many practitioners initialy with different ideas and ideals.

House Kazus has a long history, true, but they rarely do things differently relatively to when you look at them. One of their key principles is Ethics, after all. Incidentally they might teach how to hide things during an Embrace, and Nhorudm is most definitely confirmed to have done just that repeatedly in the Y2 follow-up in An Outing... (and before you ask, yes, he has justified reasons to keep that information hidden).

 

Also, the idea that you could counter attack and make the other person go limb isn't because it's sometihng that normaly happens but the Embrace goes both way, and if you are a lot mroe skilled perhaps twice as powerful in the art, then maybe you could shield of that other sperson from their own normal functions before they got a chance to react.

You could, I suppose, redirect every individual order from a patient to move one of their muscles, but doing that would be like playing a game of Whack-A-Mole with one mallet and several hundred moles. Also, you wouldn't be able to suppress reflexes this way since those completely skip the brain entirely, at least as far as actually making muscles move is concerned (thanks years old biology class being not overly useful!). Further, if the patient could conjure up enough willpower to try and stop you, you would be stopped unless you had absolutely ridiculous Sync skill levels. Blankly redirecting pain, BTW, works much better because in those cases the patient is generally actively trying to help you, if unknowingly, making it like a game of Whack-A-Mole where the moles all line up in a neat rank-and-file.

 

Which would be extremely hard to pull off. You don't really hurt them, you just detain them while you figure a solution to your predicament. Doing that to another person would also be very straining which is why I added the sugestion to have such an action cause stress while maintained unless the other person is totaly helpless.

Meaning it wouldn't be an optimal solution. But it could give you some time if the meld got you into a lot of trouble.

...I cannot imagine a situation where you'd want to retrain someone like that. I also cannot imagine a situation where, with Sync, restraining a patient like that is the best solution.

 

Also, there was an adventure where my Character could use a powerful Glamour on Philipe to make him forget what he was doing and what was going on. Then he just walked off. It was a pwoerful first year Glamour apparently.

 

Personaly, I think Glamours like that makes Glamour seem close to as bad as Mastery, even if it isn't quite as invasive. There seems to be a fine line somewhere.

Don't remember that adventure, but frankly that does make quite a bit of sense. There's a(nother) student adventure where the student tries to pull that on you, and I always wondered "when and why and how did this guy learn Mastery?". It being a Glamour just makes metric tons of sense, though (even if it makes me wonder about Glamour's moral integrity).

[isadorbg]

Dragons do "evil things" not because they lack empathy but they consider humanity as a lesser species and thus they act with us just like we act with animals.

 

They might consider torturing human wrong but they probably won't have nightmares about it just like us... with animals.

 

And I guess most of them have no problem with killing and/or eating human... who aren't useful to them .

 

Edit: if you could give the name of this adventure it would be helpful.

 

From what I remember you don't make philip "forget" as much as you confuse him to the point he doesn't know what he was doing here anymore .

 

Thats a completly different things than memory manipulation and fits with what glamour can do.

[Albert]

It seems like Empathy is used in a simmilar way as morality. Where as I saw it more as the Ethics skill, where you understand the concepts. But what you do with in the ned is up to you.

 

So, in a way, you train something similar to morality, rather than Ethics.

Which sounds more like Sympathy or Compassion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

 

Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another sentient or fictional being. One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience accurate sympathy or compassion.

 

 

In that case...

In that case Empathy would be a skill with imagining yourself in another person's shoes and trying to understand why they're doing things differently.

But it doesn't guarantee sympathy or compassion unless it's triggered in you.

 

What I'm saying is that you don't have to botch a Empathy roll just because you don't feel sympathy or compassion. Or maybe you just feel some sympathy, understandign what makes them who thy are, but you don't really feel compassion since that would be an extension that your mind would make it's decision on.

So, you might be able to read the dragon with empathy and feel it's hunger and lust for human flesh... But that doesn't mean you as a person will feel very compassionate or a lot of sympathy that it's belly isn't full of human flesh.

 

One is udnerstandign the other person, the other thigns will likely come but they don't have to.

[Albert]

Compassion and sympathy are likely to happen when you get that close, but there will always be other strong barriers that will make compassion and sympathy impossible or that will make you dismiss this Hanibal Lector person even if you make it into their mind.

 

You don't fall in love, but you do start to understand what makes them tick. What you do with that is up to the person.

 

Often, people you meet are decen't people and as you get to know them you start to Empathyse with them and feel compassion and sympathy to their hardships. You might even want to help them if it isn't too unreasonable or impossible.

[isadorbg]

If you don't remember the adventure's name, maybe you can give us the context (what happened in that adventure, why you fight with philips etc.) so I can look for it ?

Also are you sure its not a random event ?

[Metis]

Dragons do "evil things" not because they lack empathy but they consider humanity as a lesser species and thus they act with us just like we act with animals.

 

They might consider torturing human wrong but they probably won't have nightmares about it just like us... with animals.

 

And I guess most of them have no problem with killing and/or eating human... who aren't useful to them .

 

Edit: if you could give the name of this adventure it would be helpful.

 

From what I remember you don't make philip "forget" as much as you confuse him to the point he doesn't know what he was doing here anymore .

 

Thats a completly different things than memory manipulation and fits with what glamour can do.

You mean the Glamour thing? Where it's done to you I think is The Bad Boy's Bluster, thanks to Reitz the traitor, and you most definitely "forget". I don't know the one with Phillipe though.

 

Compassion and sympathy are likely to happen when you get that close, but there will always be other strong barriers that will make compassion and sympathy impossible or that will make you dismiss this Hanibal Lector person even if you make it into their mind.

As it so happens, the entire point of Sync is to cross those barriers. Another thing to keep in mind is that one of Sync's goals is to make that connection go both ways. Understanding them is indeed one thing, but feeling with them is another regardless.

[Albert]

If you don't remember the adventure's name, maybe you can give us the context (what happened in that adventure, why you fight with philips etc.) so I can look for it ?

Also are you sure its not a random event ?

It was Joanas student adventure, she wanted to learn to dance, and I got one of the professors to teach her... I'm not sure whom I picked, Briardi maybe.

Then Philipe came snooping, we didn't want him to find out that he was being forced to learn to dance to dance with Joana, so to prevent him from finding out I choose to cast a Glamour on him. Making him forget what he was doing or where he was going, then he jsut shrugged and walked off after deciding to do soemthing else that popped up in his mind.

 

It's not that agressive of a spell, but it's still borderline. It's kind of like hitting him with an illusory quarterstaff and he lost his shortterm memory, then decded to go about his day. Still, it's somewhat invasive since it affects shortterm memory.

[Metis]

That's The Bully Searches for an Invite, the Glamour thing is a stage 7 exit. Reading through it, yeah, that's one heck of a Glamour (than again, Intelligence/Glamour v. 17 should get you something).

[Albert]

You mean the Glamour thing? Where it's done to you I think is The Bad Boy's Bluster, thanks to Reitz the traitor, and you most definitely "forget". I don't know the one with Phillipe though.

 

As it so happens, the entire point of Sync is to cross those barriers. Another thing to keep in mind is that one of Sync's goals is to make that connection go both ways. Understanding them is indeed one thing, but feeling with them is another regardless.

I'm not sure feeling with them actualy requiers Sympathy or compassions, just that you share their mind and emotions, like you surf on a wave, that doesn't mean you become the wave, and it doesn't mean you become the same person either. But you get very close.

 

In the end you would likely know them nearly aswell as a sister or brother. That doesn't mean they can do thigns that crosses the border of what you could stand for.

[Albert]

That's The Bully Searches for an Invite, the Glamour thing is a stage 7 exit. Reading through it, yeah, that's one heck of a Glamour (than again, Intelligence/Glamour v. 17 should get you something).

I kind of like it, but it's borderline when it commes to morality imo

[Metis]

I'm not sure feeling with them actualy requiers Sympathy or compassions, just that you share their mind and emotions, like you surf on a wave, that doesn't mean you become the wave, and it doesn't mean you become the same person either. But you get very close.

There's a wee bit of a difference between surfing on water and linking your mind with someone else. For starters, the sea doesn't talk (although I don't live near the coast so don't quote me on that).

 

I kind of like it, but it's borderline when it commes to morality imo

I'm just amazed Glamour can do that. I'd classify that as Mastery myself.

[isadorbg]

Well I read the adventure and really I don't see the problem. There is no description whatsoever to what is happening it just I cast a glammour spell, philip has blank look in its face and wanders off. It could be anything from Mastery mind wipe to Glamouring his senses so he doesn't see the professor anymore anyway I could give a dozen explanation that doesn't get even close to Mastery.