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#21 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 09:38 AM

Historynerd;

 

Yep, it's just dispersion which isn't accounted for. That's generalized.



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#22 von_Lipstig

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:30 AM

 

Allow me to say that "accuracy" is not the same as "dispersion". The Model 1934 was not an inaccurate weapon, nor were the fire-control systems the cause of inaccuracy (they had issues, true, but they usually worked out good results); however, partly because of its high muzzle velocity (which, however, also caused the flatness of the shells' trajectory, therefore its excellent performance against vertical armor, and contributed to the fact that it retained speed rather well), and especially because of the excessive tolerances allowed in the acceptance of shells and propellant bags, in practice often the fire of the Littorio-class resulted very dispersed. To explain with the most basic terms, while the aim was good, and the enemy ships were straddled often, the shells tended to land in a wide area, which resulted in the number of shells on target being rather low.

 

To put this in context, when the guns were tried in the firing range, the manufacturing companies were allowed to make the best shells they could, very even; the result was an acceptable degree of dispersion (since, let's not forget, patterns that are too tight can be as hurtful as the ones that are too wide, as it makes difficult to "find the range"). This, however, changed during wartime, and as a result the dispersion patterns became distinctly wider; however, such phenomenon tended to vary, as sometimes a better batch of shells and propellant made the patterns tighter.

 

However, in any case you are right. In terms of sheer performance, the 40 cm Type 94 was pretty much in a league of its own, with only the 16-inch Mark 7 approaching it. To achieve similar results, the Italians should have moved on towards higher-caliber weapons.

In fact, some do indeed speculate that guns with the caliber of 406 mm (such as the one proposed in some Ansaldo or OTO designs for the Soviet Union), built around the same philosophy as the Model 1934, but with the advantage of the previous experience, might have achieved something like that.

a ) "high dispersion" happens when you insert "first salvo must hit" into the project without considering sustained firing

b ) 406/50 Б-37 has 830/870 m/s(muzzle) and 45+km at 45deg :)



#23 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:40 AM

c) barrels very close together, no delay coil. :)



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#24 von_Lipstig

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:44 AM

c) barrels very close together, no delay coil. :)

how it will work with manual firing sequence/ 2-gun turrets?  :D 



#25 Historynerd

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:48 AM

a ) "high dispersion" happens when you insert "first salvo must hit" into the project without considering sustained firing

b ) 406/50 Б-37 has 830/870 m/s(muzzle) and 45+km at 45deg :)

a) Are you saying that the dispersion issue was because the low barrel life gradually degraded the performance?

It may have been a factor, but I don't think it was the major cause for the phenomenon.

 

B) The Mark 7 fired an AP shell Mark 8 at a muzzle velocity that at average was around 740 mps, roughly 760 at most.

Firing the HC Mark 17, the muzzle velocity went up to 800 mps, 820 at most.

 

And the Italian gun had that range with a maximum elevation of 36°. During trials, a gun at 45° fired an AP shell at 46'280 m, and an HE one at 48'270.

 

 

 

c) barrels very close together, no delay coil. :)

 

Delay coils were not present, true. But I don't see how the barrels were "very close".

 

Model 1934: 264 cm apart

Mark 7: 310 cm apart 

British 14 Inch Mark 7: 244 cm apart

Planned British 16 Inch Mark 2: 259 cm apart

German 38 cm: 375 cm

French 380 mm: 195 mm (between pairs)



#26 von_Lipstig

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 11:24 AM

a) Are you saying that the dispersion issue was because the low barrel life gradually degraded the performance?

It may have been a factor, but I don't think it was the major cause for the phenomenon.

 

B) The Mark 7 fired an AP shell Mark 8 at a muzzle velocity that at average was around 740 mps, roughly 760 at most.

Firing the HC Mark 17, the muzzle velocity went up to 800 mps, 820 at most.

 

And the Italian gun had that range with a maximum elevation of 36°. During trials, a gun at 45° fired an AP shell at 46'280 m, and an HE one at 48'270.

 

>dispersion issue

Barrel life,while also being a factor, actually degraded performance only after shooting barrel fully(and not swapping liners before next engagement)

So no, just small project misconception

 

>guns

Spoiler


#27 Historynerd

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 11:45 AM

>guns

Spoiler

 

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the American Mark 7 gun; I had not read carefully.

 

Anyway, the Soviet 406 mm gun gives an idea, but its results were uneven. In some respects, the Soviet industrial base was not up to the task.

Also, my point stands, that the Italian gun had excellent range even though its maximum elevation was rather small.

 

It's interesting to note that the idea of equipping the new Italian battleships with 381 mm, instead of going to the 406 mm limit, was followed through because going for the biggest caliber would have meant longer times and bigger costs; also, the Italian industry already had experience with the 15-inch, as it had built the guns for the never completed Francesco Caracciolo-class battleships.

Also, the Italian top brass' opinion was that the Model 1934 was good enough to be a match for 406 mm guns; so, it would have been sufficient even against the Lion-class, if they had made an appearance in the Mediterranean. And they also thought that it was superior to the 14-inch Mark 7 of the King George V-class.



#28 von_Lipstig

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 11:52 AM

 

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the American Mark 7 gun; I had not read carefully.

 

Anyway, the Soviet 406 mm gun gives an idea, but its results were uneven. In some respects, the Soviet industrial base was not up to the task.

Also, my point stands, that the Italian gun had excellent range even though its maximum elevation was rather small.

FYI, Soviet industry managed all 406mm guns production/maint with no sweat. On the other hand, 130mm, 37mm and ships is another(and very sadly in some parts) matter.



#29 Historynerd

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 11:56 AM

FYI, Soviet industry managed all 406mm guns production/maint with no sweat. On the other hand, 130mm, 37mm and ships is another(and very sadly in some parts) matter.

 

I may have exaggerated-

However, on NavWeaps it says that the results were uneven also because of the poor quality of the shells and the propellant. And the Italian example shows that building guns is by itself no guarantee that they'll perform as well as they could.



#30 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 12:09 PM

Love this discussion.

 

Oh, Historynerd- above, I was making a joke, not actual commentary on the weapon. ;)



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#31 von_Lipstig

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 12:11 PM

 

I may have exaggerated-

However, on NavWeaps it says that the results were uneven also because of the poor quality of the shells and the propellant. And the Italian example shows that building guns is by itself no guarantee that they'll perform as well as they could.

>NavWeaps

:D

Results were uneven,yes, but in... '39. In '40 (after some quality control) dispersion was fixed down to planned level.



#32 Historynerd

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 12:12 PM

Love this discussion.

 

Oh, Historynerd- above, I was making a joke, not actual commentary on the weapon. ;)

 

Oh, sorry. I hadn't understood.

 

 

>NavWeaps

:D

Results were uneven,yes, but in... '39. In '40 (after some quality control) dispersion was fixed down to planned level.

 

Very well, if you say so, I have no reason to believe otherwise.



#33 Wellington99

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 07:53 AM

Just found this today. No sound but very interesting to find archive film. Covers multiple ships including Ark Royal, Nelson, and shows bits of sailor training

 

 

I also found this German film that includes the Ark Royal (though it's more likely the Furious or Courageous) and Stukas dive bombing

 


 

6CW1ZAd.jpg

 

No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy
Vice Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson

#34 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:37 AM

W99'

 

Just in time for a certain Interview, which I believe is to be published shortly!



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#35 Wellington99

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:40 AM

W99'

 

Just in time for a certain Interview, which I believe is to be published shortly!

 

I was gonna ask in the general questions if you guys have a set time to publish the interviews so I don't have to keep refreshing the kickstarter page every 5 minutes XP


 

6CW1ZAd.jpg

 

No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy
Vice Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson

#36 Wellington99

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 01:54 PM

Also happened to find this:


 

6CW1ZAd.jpg

 

No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy
Vice Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson

#37 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 02:25 PM

W99;

 

No, not set times- just usually on Fridays. :)

 

The Barham explosion is well known, and what's even more unfortunate is the large group of sailors still on the hull prior to the explosion. ;(



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#38 Wellington99

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 02:30 PM

W99;

 

No, not set times- just usually on Fridays. :)

 

The Barham explosion is well known, and what's even more unfortunate is the large group of sailors still on the hull prior to the explosion. ;(

 

It's surreal watching it, as you can see the sailors on the hull trying to jump off before she exploded.

 

If it's something that can be mentioned, is there a chance that she will enter VB at some point?


 

6CW1ZAd.jpg

 

No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy
Vice Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson

#39 Legate of Mineta

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 02:39 PM

W99;

 

I can't comment on any particular ship, of course, but there's always a chance: she was in commission in '39. :)



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#40 Wellington99

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 06:24 AM

While looking up anything on Fire Control to help Nel, I came across this:

 

 

It's so entertaining for me to see all these mechanics in work


 

6CW1ZAd.jpg

 

No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy
Vice Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson