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This setting has bountiful work opportunities and the World is open for pretty much any influence as long as you push for it hard enough.

Most of them seem weak, stupid and pittiful. Most of them want help or direction one way or Another.

 

Either you can find a nice quiet Place to settle down, grow some herbs, make some potions, construct soem trinkets, incinerate a dragon found chewing on your crops and neighbours..., or you can go the crazy path of ruling all those stupid people who will drive you mad, and you will likely regret you ever thought it was a good idea(if you suceed). (Overlord style) Overlord has a nice setting that kind of remidns me of this game, with a Roman empire like government and artistic style. With lots of magical entities and greedy people and crazy people, and alittle bit of Everything.

 

Or you might get yourself killed in a very stupid and undignified way.

 

Lot's of fun I'm thinking :) But Before that, we got the adventure of Academagia and seeking out it's treasures and knowledge.

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I don't know how many times I played the game but its really a lot and just now I got the first time the mole as familiar oO.

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I don't think Temptation of Gates is the only illegal magic-specific Emotion we'll see in later years, honestly...

An interesting idea. Combine this with things like Ride the Elements - and you can see that even mere first 10 ranks in magic skill can start to alter you both mentally and physically. I wonder, if max skill ranks keep rising at speed 10/year - how would someone with like 50 ranks in all magicall and semimagical skills look like. I think he would be barely human-like. Remember, magic is the art of dragons - it was not intended to be used by humans.

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What is Ride the Elements? I didn't know that magic could change your physical features without you forcing it to

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Ride the Elements (ability)

 

Your borderline obsessive study of Incantation has given you an affinity for the powers you manipulate, Increasing your command of Incantation Spells by 1 - and, oddly, Increasing your powers of Intimidation as well. It's apparently got something to do with the way people keep claiming to see fire phemes drift hazily into focus around you when you're annoyed.

 

It has nothing to do with changing you or your appearance, it's merely an expression of magical ability. I think that the ability to will phemes (and spells) into existence like that is a critical component of dragon-style casting, but we shall see.

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It has nothing to do with changing you or your appearance,

Really? And I think that fire phemes floating around you is pretty noticeable (even if conditional) change to your appearance :D

And this is from something as minor as Incantation 10 (nothing to write home about). Other Pillars may (and, really, should) have such effects as well. And those effects can get more serious at higher ranks of skill.

 

 

it's merely an expression of magical ability

 

 

But "expression of magical ability" is not in contradiction with "changing you or your appearance". Skills you internalize (and adaptations you evolve for this) unavoidably change you.

Simple real life example: swimming - as you progress in this skill far enough, you body adapts to it and it appearance changes accordingly.

 

 

I think that the ability to will phemes (and spells) into existence like that is a critical component of dragon-style casting

 

 

But of course. Have someone around here envisioned dragon weaving wand anyway? :) As dragons are unlikely to have pockets or carry around any luggage - they are pretty much limited to either will spells into existence on demand or have phemes etched directly on their hides. All that is, of course, assuming that dragons need to manifest phemes at all for their spells.

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That is not a physical change, it is merely an expression of magical ability. The phemes could only show up if you already know them. I disagree that any change happens.

 

Your swimming example is flawed. Muscles may grow or shrink but they do not change in so far as their function allows. I hold fast to the belief that any person who could do magic can do that. It's merely that your knowledge allows you to inadvertently generate phemes. The reason why Incantation is so obviously used in *this* example is because incantation is the art most tied to imagination, and emotions as well. (along with Glamour I suppose) So it's no surprise that therefore an unconscious desire to burn the annoyance would inadvertently trigger a fire pheme to pop up, especially since you already know fire phemes from your studies in incantation.

 

to be fair I'm sure Negaters have their own phemes which pop up in their heads, but those are tied into the mindsets developed from study and not something as innate to the human mind as simple destruction, so of course incantation would show some of the first signs of this.

 

I'm sure that it's not people turning into dragons or some other nonsense, even though dragons taught humans most (not all) magic, they've had the ability to do so all along.

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I remember Gates lore stating that a lot of Phemes commes from other planes brought back by Gates wizards explorign and studying other planes, either through visiting or summoning and examining specimens. (Not just Gates phemes)

 

Dragons might not know those phemes and consequent magic, unless they studied them after they were discovered.

 

I Think I got the "Ride the elements" thing every time I played, I think. I don't Think the effect is actually useful for willing spells, but it might indeed be linked to how dragons do it. Dragons are known for flames and incantation like effects and magic.

 

Maybe that effect will grow stronger with each passing milestone as you study and get stronger in your magic. Maybe you need to push your Incantation beyond the level of the Legate to do that, to do that you might need to be obsessive in your studies of Incantation. To actuallyhave the pheme form and become available rather than just shimmering past barely noticable. You might also need another skill toactually grab hold of this immagined pheme with your mind and link it into a spell. Some kind of dreamcontrol skill. Who knows, that Dream Control skill might be somewhat linked to Mastery, seeing as it Controls the mind etz... Or it could be a non-magical skill... The skills of a therapist maybe(There is one in the academagicia, one of the events had you take a fellow student that was pretending to be you to this mental Health professional.

 

Having vissible phemes form out of your mind might not be enough, you will likely need a skill to "link" the phemes into a spell.

 

But it seems like a very interesting skill even if it's not nessesary to cast spells. It would be kind of like escape artistry, being able to get free when other people Think they got you tied down and disabled.

 

Lets say an oponent stuns you or freezes you for a longer duration but your mind and conciousness is still free, then you can keep forming spells with your mind instead of your wand.

 

Seeing as it might be harder to form and link spells with your mind than with the use of a wand/staff/whatever, you might have a difficulty level modifier to it or a skill reduction in any field when you "will" spells into existance.

 

It probably shouldn't be more optimal for you unless you got millenia's of experience as a dragon, doing it on a Daily basis.

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I deffinately would want to learn to will spells into existance even if it isn't the optimal way of casting.

 

When you get to level 10 in that skill/parrentskill maybe it could give you +1 in every known pillar, due to your ability to Picture the spell you want to cast in your mind, making it somewhat useful even when you're using a wand/staff.

 

Kind of like casting that glamour to help you carve that statue(Carving the statue), but instead this gives you a mental template of what you want to do.

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I think the phemes are usable and recognizable, it's just that at your current level and the fact that you aren't intentionally trying to do it means it happens pretty slowly.

 

Another thing to think of is "How do you will a palette into existence? You can will all sorts of phemes but if you don't have a palette it's meaningless. (outside of some intimidation value, obviously) I agree that at least knowing the basic form of willing spells into existence would be powerfully devastating to people that think that they have you immobilized. It would also be superior to enchanting your tongue as DiCossa did because they can and will cut off your tongue if they want you bad enough. In this way they'll have to kill you. They can't stop you from thinking without using the kind of magic that probably got them chasing after you in the first place, so I think that Yes knowing how do so even if you can't do it as well as a Dragon could or even you could perform a spell with a wand, would be very, very handy.

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I don't think a spellcasting palette is a physical thing, but rather metaphysical description, in your mind, building up phemes floating around you until you link them into a spell and direct them.

 

I could imagine willing spells would be a multi skill skill of.

 

Subskills/

Vivid imagination

mental spellbinding

mental spellprojection

 

one to create the phems, one to string them together and one to direct the spell.

 

Maybe the Legate could explain how Palette's work in this setting... Don't think it's physical like a painters palette.

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Hmm, If we continue this current course of conversation, we will fall deeply into [redacted] territory.

 

Octavia Eglidi didn't need phemes and a palette as we recognize them to transform, although they were likely used in some fashion. Unbeknownst to us.

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Hmm, If we continue this current course of conversation, we will fall deeply into [redacted] territory.

 

Octavia Eglidi didn't need phemes and a palette as we recognize them to transform, although they were likely used in some fashion. Unbeknownst to us.

Octavia might have had an Active spell or enchantment running, allowing the transformation. Or tatooed phemes.

 

There are lots of possibilities.

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That is not a physical change, it is merely an expression of magical ability. The phemes could only show up if you already know them. I disagree that any change happens.

And why exactly it is "not a physical change"? So far your argument amounts to "I disagree because I disagree".

 

Muscles may grow or shrink but they do not change in so far as their function allows.

 

You vastly underestimate malleability of muscule tissue. It can change proportions of "fast" and "slow" muscule cells, change the level of innervation and density of blood vessels and so on. And all that - merely from real life physics, biomechanics and physiology. How much more can be achived when we have magic coming into play?

 

I hold fast to the belief that any person who could do magic can do that.

 

Beliefs are not arguments.

 

 

It's merely that your knowledge allows you to inadvertently generate phemes.

 

 

Knowledge is inherently inert. It is just an information packed in your mind - it cannot do anything by itself. Merely knowing something have no effect on you or world around you. Also, knowledge is represented by study level, not skill level. What allow you to generate phemes is you regular practice of incantation and adaptation of your mind and body to this practice.

 

The reason why Incantation is so obviously used in *this* example is because incantation is the art most tied to imagination, and emotions as well. (along with Glamour I suppose)

Nope. Pillars connected to mind are Revision (directed by Intelligence), Glamour (directed by Charm) and Mastery (due to its applications).

 

Incantation is dependent upon Finesse, which essentially means that it requires exacting accuracy and concentration in both thoughts and physical movements. It is pretty much an antithesis of "imagination" and "emotion" - such things have no place in working with transformations of volatile energies. Those who think that they can order fire around with their anger quickly find themselves several extremities short.

 

So it's no surprise that therefore an unconscious desire to burn the annoyance would inadvertently trigger a fire pheme to pop up, especially since you already know fire phemes from your studies in incantation.

 

It is more tricky than that. Anger and annoyance are not necessarily connected with any desire to burn, yet you manifest fire phemes anyway. That is, I speculate (and I am oversimplifying here), because anger cause body to produce adrenaline, which cause blood glucose level to rise, which provide more energy to your brain. At the same time your brain flares up with excitation, powering up all its neural circuits and among them - circuits that allow you to form phemes. Such overcharge allow said circuits to manifest phemes out of thin air.

 

Why fire, then? Simple - it is observer bias. Most probably you manifest many different phemes but fire phemes are the easiest to see and recognize even when hazy.

 

 

simple destruction, so of course incantation would show some of the first signs of this

 

Incantation per se has nothing to do with "simple destruction". Incantation is about transformation of energy, of taking potential and making it real. From Nothing, Knowledge spell is perfect example of this.

If first and foremost you can do with it is "simple destruction" - it says something about you and not about Incantation.

 

I'm sure that it's not people turning into dragons or some other nonsense

"Nonsense"? Oh so much negativity from someone who (most probably) were transformed into emperor penguin at some point of his magic career :P

Turning into dragons is, of course, the simplest way, but I was hinting at something different.

To continue with swimming example, consider this: fish are natural swimmers. Why? Because they have hydrodynamic-optimal body and fins. For you to be a natural swimmer you do not have to stop being a mammal and become a fish, but you would do well if you achive some measure of convergence with them, namely by growing fins (or at least webbed extremities) and making your body sleeker and your skin - tougher (if not outright scaled). Just look at all those marine mammals starting with dolphins.

 

And yes, I know that such convergence naturally require many generations to occur, but duh, we are talking magic here - what are our limits anyway?

 

Now returning to dragons. Dragons are natural spellcasters. They (as far as we know) do not need wands or any other mediums to create their magic. So they should have some kind of adaptation that allow for such streamlined use of magic. And so powerful magic-users should develop convergence towards dragons. Physical - to some extent. Mental - much more so.

 

even though dragons taught humans most (not all) magic, they've had the ability to do so all along

Where are you getting your idea that humans "had the ability to do [magic] all along"? I find it highly unlikely - humans do not have mental abilities to make such leaps of technique: from not having magic to having entire system of palettes, phemes, the works. Without dragons they would have no magic at all.

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Quote block limitations... Oh, well.

 

I remember Gates lore stating that a lot of Phemes commes from other planes brought back by Gates wizards explorign and studying other planes, either through visiting or summoning and examining specimens. (Not just Gates phemes)

Dragons might not know those phemes and consequent magic, unless they studied them after they were discovered.

 

Or dragons may know them for a long time and simply choose not to teach them to humans. There are too many variants so I would not bet on this one.

It probably shouldn't be more optimal for you unless you got millenia's of experience as a dragon, doing it on a Daily basis.

I think it has less to do with sheer amount of experience and more to do with adaptation to this kind of casting, which require deep knowledge of yourself, self-control and complete undertanding of magic you are casting. And, of course, willingness to lose some measure of your humanity ;)

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Quote block limitations... Oh, well.

 

 

Or dragons may know them for a long time and simply choose not to teach them to humans. There are too many variants so I would not bet on this one.

 

I think it has less to do with sheer amount of experience and more to do with adaptation to this kind of casting, which require deep knowledge of yourself, self-control and complete undertanding of magic you are casting. And, of course, willingness to lose some measure of your humanity ;)

Didn't one of those dragons tells us they used to be students at the Academagia in the olden Days, Before the Exile I guess, and the tutors had to teach them so they would pass the exams or the dragons would be very upset.

Whatever her name was that you meet in the swamps.

She was a dragon, yet she talks about her time as a student, apparently humans were lower teir students and Professors back in those Days.

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Didn't one of those dragons tells us they used to be students at the Academagia in the olden Days, Before the Exile I guess, and the tutors had to teach them so they would pass the exams or the dragons would be very upset.

Whatever her name was that you meet in the swamps.

Well, I do not know - I have not come across any such scene yet. How can it be found?

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Well, I do not know - I have not come across any such scene yet. How can it be found?

Isn't it the Exploring for the sake of.... Umm Adventure, where you can encounter that old lady with the Purple Eyes who's porting around and looking for her "book". She will notice you're a student and talk about her Days as a student.

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Oh, man, you've riled me up, but I think its best to just let it go. Once you start hitting quote limitations, you know you're trying to argue every point way too hard.

 

Suffice it to say, if you think ride the elements represent physical change, then I suppose you believe magic has a warping effect on people. That's bullshit. If that were true, you would see very pronounced effects in old mages. I think it is impossible to truly know what its like in universe, but I believe I know the answer at least as well as you think you do. We merely have different opinions.

 

You are making some real simple mistakes looking at this setting from a purely (modern) scientific angle. You don't seem to see things in a potential mental, ethereal, or spiritual sense.

 

To quote an Item description

 

Incantation: The Magnificent Imagination grants 1 point Increases to Incantation Methods and Creativity.

Incantation: The Magnificent Imagination was printed in limited numbers and is therefore a rare book. Many students of Incantation, while they learn the basics of the art, never understand how to conjure what they see into the physical. The book explains what a wonderful tool the imagination is in creating Incantation spells and phemes

 

Yes, you are right, that Incantation is the art of taking energy and transforming it into something else, but I was referring to advanced technique using the imagination, which incidentally is exactly as I described it. :) That's why if you are subconsciously thinking of burning someone, a pheme might appear.

 

Anyway, I'm done arguing, We're just going to have to Agree on Disagreeing.

 

Oh, and albert, the Dragon in question almost certainly was born before the Academagia's founding if you read that story again plus "Miles to go."

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Oh, man, you've riled me up, but I think its best to just let it go. Once you start hitting quote limitations, you know you're trying to argue every point way too hard.

 

Suffice it to say, if you think ride the elements represent physical change, then I suppose you believe magic has a warping effect on people. That's bullshit. If that were true, you would see very pronounced effects in old mages. I think it is impossible to truly know what its like in universe, but I believe I know the answer at least as well as you think you do. We merely have different opinions.

 

You are making some real simple mistakes looking at this setting from a purely (modern) scientific angle. You don't seem to see things in a potential mental, ethereal, or spiritual sense.

 

To quote an Item description

 

 

Yes, you are right, that Incantation is the art of taking energy and transforming it into something else, but I was referring to advanced technique using the imagination, which incidentally is exactly as I described it. :) That's why if you are subconsciously thinking of burning someone, a pheme might appear.

 

Anyway, I'm done arguing, We're just going to have to Agree on Disagreeing.

 

Oh, and albert, the Dragon in question almost certainly was born before the Academagia's founding if you read that story again plus "Miles to go."

The Dragon is over 3000years old? The Academagia predates the Exile.

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The legate did say that dragons have never been seen to come to a nonviolent death... :).

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She doesn't mention going to the Academagia, just having human slaves to read books to her and human tutors who would be executed if she failed an exam. No mention of the Academagia at all.

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She doesn't mention going to the Academagia, just having human slaves to read books to her and human tutors who would be executed if she failed an exam. No mention of the Academagia at all.

She apparently was a student, but you're right, the Academagia isn't mentioned by name, but she seems to recognise student's in general and seemed to relate to it.

 

The Academagia is older than the Exile and therefor existed Before humans rebelled against the Dragons.

 

Either way, she was clearly tutored and had to learn magic, no matter how magical she might have been. I'm guessing magical knowledge is still useful even if you are born "magical". Learning how to maipulate it, and how it works, I guess.

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Oh, man, you've riled me up, but I think its best to just let it go. Once you start hitting quote limitations, you know you're trying to argue every point way too hard.

 

Well I tend to have this effect on people for no apparent reason :D Some say that it is impossible to argue with me and to agree with me is far too depressive. As for quote limitations - that is just my style. It is easier to trace points being argued this way as arguments get more complex.

 

Suffice it to say, if you think ride the elements represent physical change, then I suppose you believe magic has a warping effect on people. That's bullshit. If that were true, you would see very pronounced effects in old mages.

 

"Old" does not mean "powerfull" or even "exceptionally skilled". Just look at all those instructors in the Academagia, for example. They most probably have many ranks in study, maybe even in research of their selected disciplines, but are they really skillful? Do they have even 30+ skill ranks in their chosen pillars? I have seen nothing from them so far that would require such levels of skill. And considering how trivial are tasks they need help with... <_<

 

Also, has anyone ever conducted an autopsy of any "old powerful wizard"? There are many things you can hide under those robes (or whatever is fashionable these days among that crowd), I assure you ;) And even more things can be hidden via vicarious applications of glamours and revisions.

 

Pushing yourself beyond common human limits never comes without a price. And most probably there are few who are willing to pay it. That would explain why there are so few truly powerful mages in the world.

 

I think it is impossible to truly know what its like in universe, but I believe I know the answer at least as well as you think you do. We merely have different opinions.

 

You have hard beliefs, I have insidious arguments and speculations, but at the end everything is in hands of developers. I wonder whether they are reading anything of this ;)

 

You are making some real simple mistakes looking at this setting from a purely (modern) scientific angle. You don't seem to see things in a potential mental, ethereal, or spiritual sense.

 

Cosidering how development of spells goes in game world (according to lore) - through experimentation and collection of empirical data - magic is science here.

 

And no, I consider things "in a potential mental, ethereal, or spiritual sense", I simply think that they are connected to physical world, they influence it and they are influenced by it. Doubly so when we consider living things. Triply - if said things are intelligent.

 

I was referring to advanced technique using the imagination

 

Oh, please. Do I really have to point out how imagination can be used with Negation, Revision and Glamour? Or should I rise to new levels of magnificent bastardy with imaginative uses of Gates and Mastery? :lol:

The fact that thing A can be used with thing B does not mean that they have any intristic connection.

 

That's why if you are subconsciously thinking of burning someone, a pheme might appear.

 

Not really. An astute theory, but Ride of the elements does not rely on Creativity, so you do not need an imagination at all for it to work.

 

Anyway, I'm done arguing, We're just going to have to Agree on Disagreeing.

 

Suit yourself B)

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