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Update 28 - Dunkerque

Nel Celestine

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I can't speak for the VB Team, but that would be wonderful...unlikely, due to the costs, but wonderful. :)


Maybe once you guys get some more interest / money / staff :D.


I hope that Victory Belles becomes a big sleeper hit. It's a great idea that can definitely be a big presence in the ship-girl genre :).

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They 'shift' or dematerialize, and find it difficult to reappear- it can take hours, sometimes days, for them to return.


There's a subtle hint buried in this interview about the restriction, but my lips are otherwise sworn to silence. ;)


Oh I will be searching for hours now, but you've piqued my interest. Thanks Legate!

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Thanks for the feedback! As noted in the Update, the Air Operations is certain to change prior to the end- they are trying concepts. Originally, the Team envisioned planes attacking in a way similar to Kancolle, but they are now looking at a more structured approach. I suspect it's too early to know how it will go right now.


You're welcome :) It appears that I felt so strongly about this combat issue that I dreamed about in a way I fought in real time against my friend (and lost to his superiority) on a map similar to that of 'Rise of Nations' & 'Red Alert 3', yet the units felt heavy & worthwhile. Having to chase down my friend that I tried to have my remaining submarine run up to Gibraltar type area to ambush my friend's incoming Destroyer/Cruiser, yet he hid his vessel last moment so my ambush failed because he hit it among some Finland type inlets islands, and such. Took my submarine up north then to try and sink some docked supply vessels, yet had my submarine bombed right out of the water. Was an interesting dream giving me the type of 'gritty' moment I seem to enjoy from these games that each unit is genuinely special & worthwhile in some fashion.


My dream was basically mixing & meshing 'Rise of Nations' (map wise only), 'Red Alert 3', 'Atlantic Fleet', 'Victory at Sea', and even 'Silent Hunter 3' experiences. Fun stuff.


But yeah, to that quote it be interesting to see how the planes change. I did go back & watch the video finally seeing where you're going with it, yet it had to take about 8-20 watches to finally do so with just how much both the game & you have to process. I finally put the two pieces together with what was said in this thread & interview with that video that I finally see the flow.


Curious what this "structured" approach really means. And yes, too early, but at least you have a nice footing to flesh it out, polish it, and expand in a way I'm seeing KanColle doing so with giving planes experience, changing their sprites to match their units, and to even add airbases into the mix.


That dream though, it be awesome to feel that kind of 'weighted' experience from Belles in these battles, similar to KanColle, and the games (excluding Rise of Nations) in the mix. The same type of vibe I even get from Atlantic Fleet. I'd love to feel that "hit" when they hit something.

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Interesting. Well, now I'm just hoping there's no miscommunication while hoping someone has something else to add. Seems to be typical I keep spawning miscommunication that I hope we're all on the same page hmm. I guess I could get used to what's in the combat there and could settle with speed issues at the least. I don't want to ruin the game either if someone does take my suggestions/ideas, if they even do.


Looking forward to see what these tweaks shall do & add. The numbers & animations thing hopefully should be helpful. Hopefully the ship silhouettes shall reflect the ship-class in time? The one above & below the portraits hmm.


[studying everything]

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Two more lines of questions arose from Legate's answers and my rereading of the interview. Not to ask that too much is revealed before the proper time, but my curiosity has been aroused.


1) What happens when a Belle gets sick? Can Mahan even catch a cold? If so, how is it reflected in the hull itself? Do the boilers fill with soot and the bilge overflow?


2) When a Belle does wander too far and dissipate, does the ship lose her benefits until the Belle re-manifests? Would she lose strength or experience from the event? Would a belle who's been in many battles forget a command or two, or even some time with her captain if she wanders too far and disappears? If she sorties while the Belle is missing, can the ship be lost in a single fight or no longer sense Morganas?

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1) As of 1 September 1939, there is no information about whether or no a Belle can become ill...


2) The ship loses all benefits the Belle bestows. There is no mechanical disadvantage, as I understand it, however, but I am not sure if there is memory loss or anything similar.


If you sortie a ship without a Belle, she can be permanently sunk, yes. The ship is completely normal without her Belle.

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DEV part feedback:

>additional time for editing...and secret fun things

AFAIK, there are enough "fun things" to justify redraw-insert-redraw cycle :D


>approved by the Board of Film Censors

360p fullscreen is censoring itself :D



-too fast, need user-adjusting setting

-you can't identify miss from near-miss from animation

-crit message too small and can be easily missed

-air part is ...strange. Plane count table is good, IMO ,but too strangely placed:

--player fleet placed "down(and left)" on UI, but player's plane table is "up and right" ?

--if it's land aviation (which NC.223 implies), then "land" part needs extra animation

--plane images here too alien: 3D-like img on 2D UI

-it's real belle on placeholder or just "generic" one ?


>rapidly as initiative (determined in part by rate-of-fire) will permit

how will belles with variable ROF will be handled ?






-so, B2 is Penelope


-Red onez go fasta :D


>Think of all the challenges she has met and overcome.

-*throw a look to Bingo table*

--*penetrating gaze with a smirk* ©


-so we can extend Belle's walking range by:

--anchor(with chain)

--improper use of Captain


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The Team's thinking seems to be in-line with yours: of course, AirOps UI is not final. There will definitely be different animations for land and naval by the end, at least as far as the origin of the attack goes! It's interesting you mentioned the 3D vs the 2D- that debate has been raging on our side, too. ;)


Critical Hits, Damage, and any feedback in general will ultimately be scaled larger. I think they're not yet 100% sure how they intend on animating it, though. Misses are still evolving- no one in the Team seems entirely satisfied. I imagine you'll see a few more variants as we go along.


Right now, RoF is an abstracted factor across all the Belle's batteries which can bear by range. I don't know they'll do it at the end, or if that will change.


Also...improper use of Captain. :)

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Right now, RoF is an abstracted factor across all the Belle's batteries which can bear by range. I don't know they'll do it at the end, or if that will change.


We already have Belles with "main caliber problems" and "Mk14 torpedo", so their actual ROF != tech ROF....

(So It's mostly "dud torpedoes" issue again)

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Ah, in every case (where we have data), we use actual versus theoretical as the base model. Same is true for elevation angle, where we have mount data.


I should add that Torpedo RoF isn't calculated for initiative in Artillery (Torpedoes are launched in Tactics)- but as of now, dud rate is the historical value. That's still being debated because it's so bad for the U.S. and Germany, but...it was real. :)

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Ah, in every case (where we have data), we use actual versus theoretical as the base model. Same is true for elevation angle, where we have mount data.


I should add that Torpedo RoF isn't calculated for initiative in Artillery (Torpedoes are launched in Tactics)- but as of now, dud rate is the historical value. That's still being debated because it's so bad for the U.S. and Germany, but...it was real. :)



For teh lulz : main gun problems was that bad for RN (KG 5 turrets) and MN (CT main guns loading mechanism)



And it's bad for US only: when GER has problems with G7e magnetic fuses, they just used G7a(which was still in production) parts instead

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Like others, I too found the speed fast, and the miss splashes very hand-like. I noticed the lack of braids around any ship of either side, as they were in Update #19. Was this to protect the identities of potentially still-classified Belles, or are Flagship Belles not inclined to advertise it? Do the chevrons still indicate what they did before, meaning the submarines on both sides were closer than the other ships?


Will surface ships also have the option to retreat? If so, fog may not be the best indicator for a submarine Belle in the middle of a torpedo run...unless the fog means I-8 dove, launched...a single torpedo? As many torpedoes as tubes? Somewhere in between?...and resurfaced some place outside of the conflict zone.


Can the other sub Belle receive an order to stay down, or does she have to resurface after her Surprise Phase? I worry about trying to remember who is on the surface and who is below.

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The braids were removed when the Belles were hidden, alas. :)


You are correct about the chevrons.


Theoretically, any Belle can be ordered by the Flag to retreat, but that's rare for surface ships. Carriers, I think, are the only ones set up to do that in combat. In this example, I-8 has dived after firing a spread (all attacks are displayed as one, although individual hit and miss are calculated), and she will attempt to retreat out of the combat. At her current distance from the enemy, only aerial ASW could truly prevent her, though.

Submarines are always below the surface in combat, and only surface is compelled to do so or if the Flag requires it. No need to worry about the disposition of the submarine, as you'll choose the Flag via your Flagship. :)

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Glad to see yet another good design for a Marine Nationale ship. Her friendship with Hood promises to be quite a bumpy affair considering the later's role at Mers-el-Kébir. However, it always struck me as quite intriguing how most of the Royal Navy capital ships that took part in Dark & Mers-el-Kébir later met a grievous end (Ark Royal, Barham, Hood...), don't you think ?


As for those interested in WoWs Dunkerque, here is what I can tell you about her:




_ Fastest T6 BB.

_ Fastest T6 turret traverse speed for a BB (the turret can turn as fast as you can steer the ship with Expert Marksman.)

_ Fighter plane at T6.

_ Pretty good range of 18,2km.

_ Incredible accuracy and penetration up to 14km.

_ Strongest deck protection at T6, very good against dive bombers.

_ Unlike most BB of the tier, which are WW1 designs, Dunkerque does not have easily exploitable secondaries casemates or weak barbettes to shoot AP at.

_ Fast reloading, long range secondaries firing only HE (base 5,5km range).

_ All forward battery.

_ Excellent on-shoulder firing arc, facilitating escapes.

_ High-velocity, high-penetration AP shells.

_ Flat shell trajectory.

_ 35% Fire chance on HE shells.

_ Strong frontal armor capable of auto-bouncing shells up to 14".

_ Strong control tower armor.

_ 50mm turtleback renders cruiser & destroyer AP shells harmless, may also deflect/reduce damage from battleship shells penetrating the belt.

_ Fast rudder-shift.




_ Weak belt armor (225m).

_ Weak torpedo protection (which makes no sense considering her IRL design, but go figure...)

_ 13" guns.

_ Only 2 turrets, losing one means losing 50% firepower.

_ Dramatic loss of accuracy and penetration beyond 14km.

_ Stern located secondaries are ill-suited for brawling.

_ Mediocre AA protection.

_15" and 16" will overmatch her armor.

_ Huge superstructure makes the ship easy to hit with plunging fire if immobile/going in a straigth line.

_ HE spam magnet.

_ Long turn-time.


All in all, she is a very solid Battle Cruiser, use her to hunt other cruisers, destroyers and learn to exploit the flaws of WW1 battleships. I do not recommend trying to play her like an Izumo or North Carolina as she does not have the armor or AA strength to do so, sniping is also a bad idea since you will quickly realize that her accuracy and penetration at maximum range are sorely lacking. What you should do instead:


_ Use her mobility to dictate what and when to engage.

_ Zigzag, wiggle and juke out of long range salvos, close in for counter salvos, rinse & repeat.

_ Abuse WW1 Battleships weakspots such as secondaries casemates, turret barbettes, superstructures and non-all or nothing designs. All german BBs, Warspite and New-Mexico are the most vulnerable to superstructure shots (I have seen up to 20k damages inflicted on a Tirpitz with a full broadside striking its superstructure.)

_ Melt what you cannot penetrate with HE.

_ Show your stern to yolo destroyers to shower them with secondary fire while presenting a very small target. (I call it "farting in their general direction").

_ Seek AA cover from CVs, CAs or other BBs, "escorting" another BB is usually a good idea.

_ Always keep track of your speed and relative position to the rest of your team, it's very easy to overextend with Dunkerque.

_ Only bow tank as a last resort.


My results after 40 battles with her:





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